Most annoying things in fighting games

[Guest Adrian 3:16]

I think everyone has that one friend who would always be the first to get a new fighting game, and you'd be playing it and he'd totally dominate you, then you ask "so how do you do so and so's moves". At which point he'd lie through his teeth and say "dogg, I don't know, I'm just doing them" while he's kicking your ass.

 

Of course after a few rounds I picked up a few sweet combos of my own (this is Deadly Alliance by the way) and my friend would bitch about how I was cheap ("how did you do that?!) and therefore his true scrub nature was revealed.

 

And this is going way back in the day when I used to play Mortal Kombat and Street Fighter 2 in the arcades, there was always this fat nerdy fuck there- we're talking Comic Book Guy Incarnate. And you couldn't even play a straight up match against him because his BO was horrifying and it was impossible to concentrate. I think using outside factors like poor hygeine to win games should be frowned upon, but maybe that's just me...

[Anya 0]

I would just jump right over the ice attack, jump kick them, uppercut, uppercut, leg sweep.

....and they could just block all that.

[AndrewTS 0]

Don't even get me started on the guy who thinks there are no overpowered characters in 3rd Strike.

Please, get started.

 

Among equally-skilled players a Chun Li will pretty soundly beat an Elena, but the overall game balance is rather even. If players are rather good at parrying, it becomes a rather pointless exercise because those with the faster attacks will have the advantage, but you can even turn those off if you want.

[Jer 0]

Not sure if it's what you're thinking about PK, but this is good. http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/thread34747.php

 

Anyway yeah, all the people whining about stupid little tricks that beat you should indeed just get over it and learn to deal with the trick. Scrub stuff is easy to beat if you're decent at a game. And stuff like turtling isn't "cheap" at all, it's a viable strategy that often is what's needed to win. I think the original poster mentioned SC, and especially if he's talking SC2, constant step and movement and turtling is pretty much a staple of high level play since step is so safe. Playing defensive with the lead is just smart, especially in a game like SC2 where it's so much easier to punish rushdown than it is to do damage with it.

[AndrewTS 0]

Anyway yeah, all the people whining about stupid little tricks that beat you should indeed just get over it and learn to deal with the trick.  Scrub stuff is easy to beat if you're decent at a game.

For most of the particular cases here, yeah. However, that doesn't mean that companies shouldn't fix stuff that's cheap or things that are just whacked out--like dominating characters, moves with too much priority, and throws doing too much damage. However, a company has to be careful not to overdo it, like all the upgrades to SFII.

 

I'd say most early fighters had "cheap" throwing. It's simple to execute, quite damaging, and difficult to counter. That's the criteria for "cheap" as far as I'm concerned, plus remember that there were no penalties for a missed throw and it was unblockable. Plus, the early fighters had some insane range on throwing.

 

Later SF games lessened the throw damage, made them counterable, added "missed throw" animations, for instance.

 

And stuff like turtling isn't "cheap" at all, it's a viable strategy that often is what's needed to win. 

 

It's an extremely lame one. As long as a game have some method of overhead attacking, it's not a problem. Ironically, MK does have a plus in its favor in that regard, because block damage is higher than it is in a typical Japanese-bred 2D fighter. In the SF games, for instance, you don't take any block damage from normal attacks.

 

Although the later games made it easier to stuff out turtling, such as the universal overheads.

 

I think the original poster mentioned SC, and especially if he's talking SC2, constant step and movement and turtling is pretty much a staple of high level play since step is so safe.

 

Just like with parries, turtling, etc., if you go too far in that direction, things get really freakin' boring and cease to be fun. That's the point the original poster had made.

[Anya 0]

Even old school MK didn't have cheap throws. +1 for MK.

[Use Your Illusion 0]

To be honest, Sakura, I found it almost impossible in the latter MK games, espicially MK3 & UMK3, to actually get in and perform a throw. The computer was just so insanely quick that throwing was just not an option for me.

 

UYI

[Anya 0]

That's just the AI. It's programmed so that almost everytime you throw they throw back or whatever.

 

Against humans throwing is a lot easier, but if you hold back on the stick you can block any throw.

[Thoth 0]

Don't even get me started on the guy who thinks there are no overpowered characters in 3rd Strike.

Please, get started.

 

Among equally-skilled players a Chun Li will pretty soundly beat an Elena, but the overall game balance is rather even. If players are rather good at parrying, it becomes a rather pointless exercise because those with the faster attacks will have the advantage, but you can even turn those off if you want.

You are so full of shit.

 

Chun Li kara-throw cancel equals free super every time I connect with crouching MK.

 

And Q taunting three times equals super mega armor.

Edited March 31, 2004 by Thoth

[Thoth 0]

Oh man, some of these "strategies" are laughable. Where are the people that actually play fighting games on a regular basis? Renegade? Thoth? SOMEONE CHIME IN WITH SOMETHING REAL!

 

Can anyone drop a link to "The Code Of The Scrub" for everyone to read?

 

Don't even get me started on the guy who thinks there are no overpowered characters in 3rd Strike.

I haven't said anything yet because my mouth is agape at being dumbstruck reading this tripe.

 

"OMG subzero is eazy I use leet skill jump ovr freeze ball and upercut"

 

Reading this actually cuases me to seize up for a moment where I cannot type.

 

If any of you have Xbox Live and Capcom VS SNK 2, I'm begging you give me your gamertag so I can kick your ass.

[Nighthawk 0]

Are you guys proud of yourselves? I mean, I don't care, but this is like a sterotypical example of what someone like what Rant was describing would say. It's fine if you practice and get good, but don't act like someone is a loser for sucking at video games.

[Thoth 0]

Are you guys proud of yourselves? I mean, I don't care, but this is like a sterotypical example of what someone like what Rant was describing would say. It's fine if you practice and get good, but don't act like someone is a loser for sucking at video games.

It's not that you suck, it's that you're acting like scrubs.

 

Sirlin has a lot to say about that.

[Nighthawk 0]

Well, my strategy was to punch somebody in the arm. I don't pretend that it was skill.

[Ced 0]

I get good enough in fighting games to hold my own against everybody else. Video gaming is my hobby and not my life...except when money and prizes are involved.

 

As for fighting game strategies, I just mix my moves up and keep my opponent guessing. Nothing too complex.

[Jer 0]

I'd say most early fighters had "cheap" throwing. It's simple to execute, quite damaging, and difficult to counter. That's the criteria for "cheap" as far as I'm concerned, plus remember that there were no penalties for a missed throw and it was unblockable. Plus, the early fighters had some insane range on throwing.

 

Later SF games lessened the throw damage, made them counterable, added "missed throw" animations, for instance.

 

I can't comment in particular about original SF2 because I never played it at a good level, but in general, "throws are cheap" is the most common and most wrong statement that you see in threads like this. It's possible they actually are cheap in SF2 (high and low, unbreakable for 20% does indeed sound strong), but you also said throws were lame in Tekken and Soul Calibur the last time we argued, so you lose some credibility with me there.

 

It's an extremely lame one. As long as a game have some method of overhead attacking, it's not a problem. Ironically, MK does have a plus in its favor in that regard, because block damage is higher than it is in a typical Japanese-bred 2D fighter. In the SF games, for instance, you don't take any block damage from normal attacks.

 

If a game is designed so that turtling is actually overpowered, maybe you have a point. The problem is that a lot of people, like the original poster, equate any sort of evasive, safe play with turtling. "Omg he used 8wr to step my move, lame!". Um, that's what it's there for. Omg do horizontals instead of verticals! It's pretty safe to assume if it's some arcade guy he's not going to be step-guarding. Repeated AA equals win.

 

Just like with parries, turtling, etc., if you go too far in that direction, things get really freakin' boring and cease to be fun. That's the point the original poster had made.

 

Meh part of the fun is learning to play against people of all different skill levels and play styles. Using 8wr/step/step-guard all the time is just a strategy in SC2, knowing how to counter it and other strategies is just part of the game. Playing well with a defensive style is hard, just like playing well with an offensive style. I don't see why one is considered better than the other. Fights can just be just as interesting trying to get through a good defense as just rushing each other down.

[Pegasus Kid 0]

Are you guys proud of yourselves? I mean, I don't care, but this is like a sterotypical example of what someone like what Rant was describing would say. It's fine if you practice and get good, but don't act like someone is a loser for sucking at video games.

I'll never advocate someone is a loser for sucking at a game. I do have problems with:

 

A) People complaining about a facet of the game that they can't wrap their brain around hard enough to circumvent. If it's in the game, then it's there to exploit. The only time I have ever seen a problem with a game is when it locks the game up (see Kim Handcuffs in CvS2 or Gambit Lock in MvC2). Just because a person can't deal with the fact that SC2 has an eight way direction (which isn't that hard to deal with if you use your head for a minute) doesn't mean the game is poor or the players isn't good. It's up to the player to deal with the many facets of the game, not bitch and moan about it.

 

B) People who make statements like the aforementioned no overpowering characters in 3S when it's painfully obvious that there's not only a clearly defined tiering system but even the characters within the top tier of the game like Chun, Yun, Ken and & Makoto have advantages over each other (such as pointed out by Thoth with Chun). When you make a statement like that, those readers who may not have such a strong grasp of the game are going to be misguided. If you don't know what you're talking about, then at least ask someone first or make the statement such that it's leaves more and/or better room for interpretation.

 

I get good enough in fighting games to hold my own against everybody else. Video gaming is my hobby and not my life...except when money and prizes are involved.

Stuff like this tends to bug me. "Everybody" first of all is a massively broad term. I'd venture you guess you couldn't "hold your own" against some of the best players in any state or even province up here in Canada. I'm very good at the games I play, ranking highly in just about every tournament I enter, but I'd never say I could hold my own against everybody else, that's insanity.

 

Like you, video games (or specifically fighting games) are a hobby. Because I spend more time practicing and entering tournaments doesn't mean it's my life though. Some devote massive amounts of time to their games and others do not. One only hopes they have balance.

[MrRant 0]

I think by "holding his own" he is referring to being competitive while winning some and losing some. He doesn't get annhilated.

 

 

Either that or he holds his cock while playing.

[Pegasus Kid 0]

Not sure if it's what you're thinking about PK, but this is good. http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/thread34747.php

Jer; that's a very good topic but not quite what I was looking for.

 

Thoth pointed everyone in the right direction, they may not have found the right article though. If anyone is interested, please Take a Look Here and give this article a read. It's very good work and echoes my sentiments exactly.

[AndrewTS 0]

You are so full of shit.

 

^ Always a lovely way to start when you're imparting wisdom to another, asshole.

 

A) People complaining about a facet of the game that they can't wrap their brain around hard enough to circumvent. If it's in the game, then it's there to exploit.

 

By that logic, there are no inherently flawed gameplay systems, correct?

 

When you make a statement like that, those readers who may not have such a strong grasp of the game are going to be misguided.

 

I'll freely admit I don't have such a strong grasp of the game.

 

 

It's possible they actually are cheap in SF2 (high and low, unbreakable for 20% does indeed sound strong), but you also said throws were lame in Tekken and Soul Calibur the last time we argued, so you lose some credibility with me there.

 

By my definition of cheap, yes they are. You may have your own definition of it that's more lenient than mine. That's why I personally refrain from throwing most of the time.

 

As for the 3D fighter throws, multiparts that require a specific series of buttons to be entered at a particular time for an opponent to escape them seem a bit excessive and certainly abusable. Plus, unless you have a guide in front of you which details exactly what they are (because I've yet to see any such game tell you how to do that within it's training mode or anything of the sort), you're either going to have to figure them out by trial or error or spring for an overpriced guide. You happen to disagree with that opinion, so if that lost any of my non-existent credibility to speak on 3D fighters, so be it.

 

Playing well with a defensive style is hard, just like playing well with an offensive style. I don't see why one is considered better than the other. Fights can just be just as interesting trying to get through a good defense as just rushing each other down.

 

If that defense includes actually contact (defensive manuevers that deal out damage), then sure. However, a time-wasting, do-nothing style is not all that interesting.

[Pegasus Kid 0]

A) People complaining about a facet of the game that they can't wrap their brain around hard enough to circumvent. If it's in the game, then it's there to exploit.

 

By that logic, there are no inherently flawed gameplay systems, correct?

Every game has inherent flaws. It's up to the players to determine whether those flaws are such that they can be exploited without ruining the game (see Roll Cancel or AHVB for examples) or such that you no longer wish to play because it's so broken (see bosses in SvC for a prime example).

 

By my definition of cheap, yes they are.  You may have your own definition of it that's more lenient than mine.  That's why I personally refrain from throwing most of the time.

Cheap is a buzzword for something that players can't figure out how to get passed. Your refraining from throws only makes you that much less of a player. Read that article I linked to.

 

As for the 3D fighter throws, multiparts that require a specific series of buttons to be entered at a particular time for an opponent to escape them seem a bit excessive and certainly abusable.  Plus, unless you have a guide in front of you which details exactly what they are (because I've yet to see any such game tell you how to do that within it's training mode or anything of the sort), you're either going to have to figure them out by trial or error or spring for an overpriced guide.  You happen to disagree with that opinion, so if that lost any of my non-existent credibility to speak on 3D fighters, so be it.

I assume you're referring to the chain throw sequence for King in the Tekken series. First of all, those chains take a fair bit of time to memorize and execute. Second of all, each link in the chain can be broken. As for how to acquire the info, if a player is willing to take a simple baby step rather than complain about the fact they can't escape the throw then they can simply go to Gamefaqs. This isn't rocket science. The information is at the finger tips of anyone who's willing to actually do something instead of cry and complain about their lack of being able to win.

[Thoth 0]

^ Always a lovely way to start when you're imparting wisdom to another, asshole.

I wasn't imparting wisdom, I was saying you are full of shit.

 

And Pegasus nailed it down for the most part.

[AndrewTS 0]

Every game has inherent flaws. It's up to the players to determine whether those flaws are such that they can be exploited without ruining the game (see Roll Cancel or AHVB for examples) or such that you no longer wish to play because it's so broken (see bosses in SvC for a prime example).

 

Ah! Something new has been added!

 

You're backpeddling. What's this about exploiting without ruining the game? No, that isn't what you said. You said if it is in the game, it's fair game.

 

Cheap is a buzzword for something that players can't figure out how to get passed. Your refraining from throws only makes you that much less of a player. Read that article I linked to.

 

No thanks. I beg to differ on your definition of cheap. If the method of executing the move is far easier than the method of countering the move, that's "my" idea of cheap. If it is easily abusable and does far more damage than it should, that's "my" idea of cheap. Do techniques that players commonly call "cheap" (but you would not) reward skill on the part of the person using them?

 

I assume you're referring to the chain throw sequence for King in the Tekken series. First of all, those chains take a fair bit of time to memorize and execute.

 

This is merely going on my Tekken 2 experience, but--no they don't. It wasn't too hard to pick up after a couple of tries. That is, executing the throw sequences. Also, King isn't the only one with them, Anna and Nina too.

 

Second of all, each link in the chain can be broken.

 

I know that.

 

As for how to acquire the info, if a player is willing to take a simple baby step rather than complain about the fact they can't escape the throw then they can simply go to Gamefaqs.

 

Which player complained they can't escape the throw? I'm the only player I've known of around here thus far that can do the multi-parts, period.

 

I checked out Gamefaqs, and it turns out in the later games they...simplified the breakouts! They're now single or double-simultaneous button presses as opposed to arcane commands such as:

 

"While she's moving their arm to break it...

2,1,3,4,1+2"

 

Call me crazy, but changing it in the later games MAYBE indicated there was something wrong in that game that called for it to changed?

 

This isn't rocket science.

 

"After he gives them the second knee...

2,4,1,1+2+3"

 

--that isn't rocket science, but it isn't significantly more interesting, either.

 

The information is at the finger tips of anyone who's willing to actually do something instead of cry and complain about their lack of being able to win.

 

Again, where was I "crying and complaining" about "their" (my?) lack of ability to win?

 

I wasn't imparting wisdom, I was saying you are full of shit.

 

It's quite clear (at least in your case) the part of your brain spent on learning these games came at the expense of your mastery of the English language.

 

PK manages to sound intelligent and diplomatic. Try it sometime.

 

The wit in your signature astounds me.

[Pegasus Kid 0]

You're backpeddling.  What's this about exploiting without ruining the game?  No, that isn't what you said.  You said if it is in the game, it's fair game.

And I stick by that point. It's a matter of whether you're willing to play it. We'll take SvC because the game is basically considered broken (at least the arcade version). The game was poorly designed, that's all there is to it. There are so many glitches and so many issues that it makes it impossible to play on a high level competitively. As such, the community elected to stop playing it on a large scale. So you see, all the glitches and issues are there and are exploited by those that elect to still play it, regardless of how "cheap" or whatever term you want to apply to this situation. It's in the game, it's up for grabs.

 

No thanks.  I beg to differ on your definition of cheap.  If the method of executing the move is far easier than the method of countering the move, that's "my" idea of cheap.  If it is easily abusable and does far more damage than it should, that's "my" idea of cheap.  Do techniques that players commonly call "cheap" (but you would not) reward skill on the part of the person using them?

Your definition would literally cripple any MvC2 player. It is your very interpretation of "cheap" that has elevated the game of MvC2 to where it is. Where do you think this game would be without Magneto Infinite, Iron Man Infinite, Cable's AHVB, Sentinel's Fast Fly/Unfly, etc... The players found these glitches and turned them around such that it forced everyone else to adopt them and work with and/or around them. Look at AHVBx3. That move can literally kill a character without them ever making a move (assuming you're smart enough to guard break upon entry and remember to make sure the last AHVB is timed right for the max 130 hits). While it's hard to swallow, the community takes this fact in stride and realizes that you're in trouble in a situation like this. Some people think of interesting ways around it (take the shot on entry and hope the guys timing is off to reblock is one way in this particular example). The bottom line is that good players fine ways to suck it up, learn and adapt.

 

Which player complained they can't escape the throw?  I'm the only player I've known of around here thus far that can do the multi-parts, period. 

 

I checked out Gamefaqs, and it turns out in the later games they...simplified the breakouts!  They're now single or double-simultaneous button presses as opposed to arcane commands such as:

 

"While she's moving their arm to break it...

2,1,3,4,1+2"

Again, difficulty isn't a factor to good players. The fact you have to work hard and improve your execution to the point where you have to remember key sequences of buttons at key intervals in a throw chain doesn't make a difference to me or anyone else that wants to be as good as they can be in the game. Talk to any player who's ever bothered to learn an infinite, or a complex assisted reset, or all the players on Tekken Zaibatsu who honed their craft to the point where they could care less about a chain throw because they'll always break out on the first link. They put in the time to learn. They reap the benefits. They didn't complain about the complexity of it, they just dealt with it. That's what good players do.

 

Again, where was I "crying and complaining" about "their" (my?) lack of ability to win?

that was phrased badly. I didn't mean it as a personal attack when I used the terms "crying and complaining." It was meant as a description for the hundreds if not thousands of players who aren't willing to take the extra step and learn rather than complain about how unfair something is.

 

Take it, adapt, practice, execute.

[Guest wildpegasus]

The most annoying thing in fighting games for me is executing manuevers that have you go up, down, left, diagonal and pressing buttons in a certain order to hit a move. 8/10ths of the time it doesn't work. I'll be trying to hit ONE move in practise and it can literally take hours to do and than after that I'll never be able to hit it again. Without a doubt the most frustrating thing to do in video game history as it takes all the fun out of the games. Than you have to mesmorise a million different attacks just to get into the game all the while knowing they'll never work when you want them to. And than if you ever want to play a new fighting game you have to do it all over again. Stupid in a lot of ways.

 

Bottom Line is this -- Nothing ever works in fighting games even when you push the buttons exactly the way you're supposed to. Extreamly frustrating.

[Pegasus Kid 0]

Are you trying to bait people out?

[Thoth 0]

Do techniques that players commonly call "cheap" (but you would not) reward skill on the part of the person using them?

The answer to the question is yes.

 

Do you know why?

 

Because the person who uses techniques that other players whine and bitch out wins.

 

In the end, the only thing that matters is that somebody's win count increased by one, and the other person is kicked off the machine.

 

It's exactly like the first season of Survivor. Richard Hatch formed a four person alliance to vote everyone off, and everyone screamed and bitched that it was unfair.

 

Who won the million dollars?

 

BTW, I'm hard on you because I just can't deal with the attitude that some moves are "cheap," as you say.

Edited March 31, 2004 by Thoth

[Thoth 0]

The most annoying thing in fighting games for me is executing manuevers that have you go up, down, left, diagonal and pressing buttons in a certain order to hit a move. 8/10ths of the time it doesn't work. I'll be trying to hit ONE move in practise and it can literally take hours to do and than after that I'll never be able to hit it again. Without a doubt the most frustrating thing to do in video game history as it takes all the fun out of the games. Than you have to mesmorise a million different attacks just to get into the game all the while knowing they'll never work when you want them to. And than if you ever want to play a new fighting game you have to do it all over again. Stupid in a lot of ways.

 

Bottom Line is this -- Nothing ever works in fighting games even when you push the buttons exactly the way you're supposed to. Extreamly frustrating.

...

 

Don't feed the trolls.

[Ced 0]

I get good enough in fighting games to hold my own against everybody else. Video gaming is my hobby and not my life...except when money and prizes are involved.

Stuff like this tends to bug me. "Everybody" first of all is a massively broad term. I'd venture you guess you couldn't "hold your own" against some of the best players in any state or even province up here in Canada

I've been destroyed by tournament caliber players, but I'll at least show signs that I know what in the world I'm doing against them; ie no button mashing, parrying, countering, sidesteps and the whatnot. Admittedly, I'm the type of fighting game competitor that's usually first or second round fodder.

 

"Holding my own" to me equates to "not getting owned". Any loss that isn't a perfect is an acceptable loss. (Hey, it counts for something...)

 

"While she's moving their arm to break it...

2,1,3,4,1+2"

My friend yelled something like that while I was playing Soul Calibur II. My response was "What the f*** did you just say?"

[DangerousDamon 0]

I would just jump right over the ice attack, jump kick them, uppercut, uppercut, leg sweep.

....and they could just block all that.

I never said it worked everytime. Jesus.

[razazteca 0]

"While she's moving their arm to break it...

2,1,3,4,1+2"

My friend yelled something like that while I was playing Soul Calibur II. My response was "What the f*** did you just say?"

Which one of those is the Guard botton? Sounds like a Ivy combo to me.