Questions on Tolkien/LotR Books/LotR Movies?

[Guest Cerebus]

So fire away. What questions/inquiries do you have about the movies, books, or Tolkien in general. I've read more books about Tolkien and his works than I care to think about (I can't speak Elvish beyond a few words so don't ask though).

[Mole 0]

(I can't speak Elvish beyond a few words so don't ask though).

That was my only question.

[Guest Cerebus]

I tried learning it when I was a freshman in high school but gave up after about a week. It was too much work and just too little payoff (after all, how many job interviews will you snag by bragging that you can speak Quenya?).

[The Mandarin 0]

Explain the plot and all subplots, and when you do that, spell each character's name in all capitals please.

[Guest evenflowDDT]

Why are the films so underwhelming and why do people like them so much?

[Guest Cerebus]

Explain the plot and all subplots, and when you do that, spell each character's name in all capitals please.

PLOT:

 

The Ring of Power, forged by SAURON, was lost after being struck from his hand by ISILDUR, king of Arnor during the Last Alliance of Men and Elves. It was found by a hobbit named SMEAGOL, and, because of the ring, became warped, deformed, and with long life. He lost the Ring to BILBO who passed it down to his nephew FRODO. The wizard GANDALF realizes the origin of the ring and decides it must be destroyed.

 

Subplot:

 

ARAGORN, descendent of the line of Isildur, must reclaim his rightful place as king of Arnor & Gondor by saving Gondor and helping destroy the Ring.

 

Subplot:

 

SARUMAN, one of the Five Wizards, forms an alliance with Sauron and organizes an attack on the kingdom of Rohan by manipulating the king, THEODEN, through his servent GRIMA WORMTOUNGE.

 

Subplot:

 

Although coming in contact with the Ring, FARAMIR, son of the Steward of Gondor, is torn between pleasing his father, DENETHOR, and allowing FRODO and SAM on their quest to destroy the Ring that corrupted his brother BOROMIR.

 

That's all I can think of now.

[Guest SP-1]

Why are the films so underwhelming and why do people like them so much?

It's simply not your taste is all.

 

Too much work went into costumes, writing, cinematography, acting, sets, and music for those films to be underwhelming.

 

They just don't click with you, man. It happens.

[dpac 0]

How come Saramon (the evil Wizard) and Witch Tounge are killed off in the beginning of the EE of ROTK, and not used to thier fullness like in the book?

[Guest Cerebus]

How come Saramon (the evil Wizard) and Witch Tounge are killed off in the beginning of the EE of ROTK, and not used to thier fullness like in the book?

My opinion is pacing. Remember that Tolkien was not a fiction writer by trade so he did a lot of big no-nos in LotR. One was to have what is essentially an epilogue become a full blown conflict after the climax to the main plot (the fall of Sauron). While Tolkien's point should be well taken, that no place, no matter how pure, can be unaffected by war, the scene's position is very out of place.

 

I think that PJ wanted to tie up the loose end of what happened to Saruman by tacking on his death to the end of the scene where he is expelled by Gandalf. IMO, it was done quite well.

[Dr. Tom 0]

Not really a movie or trilogy question, but you mentioned the Five Wizards. I can only pull 3: Gandalf, Saruman, and Radagast the Brown. Who were the other two?

[El Psycho Diablo 0]

Not really a movie or trilogy question, but you mentioned the Five Wizards. I can only pull 3: Gandalf, Saruman, and Radagast the Brown. Who were the other two?

I don't think it's actually ever mentioned, at least in LotR..

[Nighthawk 0]

Were they an alegory?

[The Metal Maniac 0]

SARUMAN, one of the Five Wizards, forms an alliance with Sauron and organizes an attack on the kingdom of Rohan by manipulating the king, THEODEN, through his servent GRIMA WORMTOUNGE.

 

Wait a second.

 

In the books, isn't Saruman acting essentially on his own, because he wants to claim the Ring for himself? I thought I had heard that...but I've never read them, so I'm not sure.

[Guest Cerebus]

Not really a movie or trilogy question, but you mentioned the Five Wizards. I can only pull 3: Gandalf, Saruman, and Radagast the Brown. Who were the other two?

 

Well for a while not many people knew them besides their Maiar ("real") names Alatar and Pallando, that their colors were Blue, and they were called the Ithryn Luin. Exactly what happened to them isn't clear, in Peoples of Middle Earth, Tolkien names them "Morinehtar and Romestamo" and says that they were successful in stirring up rebellion in the far East and South against Sauron. In another letter, though, he suggests they failed in their mission, but more because they became enamored with Middle Earth rather than outright betrayal like Saruman. In any rate, they didn't have any direct influence on the stories and aren't talked about much at all.

 

Were they an alegory?

 

Sort of. In his introduction, and many of his letters, Tolkien flat out denied that the tale was an allegory to World War 2 which makes a lot of sense since he began the tale several years before the invasion of Poland (although Hitler had already began his rise to power). He did, however, mention that his experience in World War I had a lot of effect on the work and there are definetly parts in the work that reflected this (the Scourging of the Shire, the Dead Marshes, and so on). And there are a lot of themes in the books (technology vs. nature, decay, falls from grace etc.).

 

In the books, isn't Saruman acting essentially on his own, because he wants to claim the Ring for himself? I thought I had heard that...but I've never read them, so I'm not sure.

 

No, not really. He had actually already started summoning Orcs and breeding Uruk-Hai in Orthanc several hundred years before the War of the Ring and had begun usiung the Palantir will before that as well. In essence he was nominally a servent of Sauron but was secretly trying to get the Ring for himself at the same time.

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

OMG SPOILERS PLZ!!!

 

Oh yeah, who's this Tolkien guy? Sounds like a hippie...

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

No, not really. He had actually already started summoning Orcs and breeding Uruk-Hai in Orthanc several hundred years before the War of the Ring and had begun usiung the Palantir will before that as well. In essence he was nominally a servent of Sauron but was secretly trying to get the Ring for himself at the same time.

 

He was pretending to be the servant of Sauron, but he was secretly plotting to betray him and become the new dark lord with Isengard as his Mordor. Sauron knew full well what was going on, and in the long run Saruman was actually serving Sauron unknowingly. But make no mistake, Saruman was having Merry & Pippin brought to Orthanc for a reason, rather than take them to Mordor. If he got the Ring, he wasn't about to give it up to Sauron willingly. Note that I said 'willingly', Sauron likely would have gotten it anyways.

 

My question is what exactly became of the Seven. I seem to remember the dwarves destroying/losing a bunch and Sauron getting the rest, but do you have any more details than that? I know that the Nine belong to the Nazgul, the Three are currently held by Gandalf, Elrond & Galadriel, and that Frodo has the One, but I forget the fate of the dwarven rings.

[Guest jm29195]

From what I can recall, one was lost in Moria at some point, another was taken by torture from Thorin Oakenshield's Father or Grandfather when he was driven nuts and went into the Witch King's (Sauron) Mirkwood Sanctuary... I also know that at least one was eaten along with the owner by a dragon in the Northern mountains, maybe more ended up like that?

[Guest Cerebus]

Four of them were destroyed, consumed by dragons, and the other three were recovered by Sauron (the last one stolen back actually belonged to the father of the Dwarven hero of the Hobbit, Thorin Oakshield).

[UseTheSledgehammerUh 0]

The biggest thing that makes Return of the King suck is this:

 

The "wiping an unstoppable army of ants away with your hand" theory. By this, I mean, its been NINE HOURS of an epic movie, and how do all the orcs and such finally get stopped? By the CGI Pirates of the Carribean simply sweeping them away.

 

Thus, The Lord of the Rings Trilogy is the most ANTICLIMATIC FILM EVER. Still, visually breathtaking, but horrid, horrid ending. The movie should've ended with the hobbits drinking at the bar. We didn't need another fucking half hour of pointless crap to an already too long and dissapointing film.

 

I give the following ratings:

 

Fellowship of the Ring: A

The Two Towers: B

Return of the King: B -

[{''({o..o})''} 0]

Where's your question?

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

My question, and mind you, I know next to nothing about this whole trilogy both in novel and film form, is why can't the ring be used effectively? If it has so much power, why can't it be used for good? What makes it intrisically so evil? Also, how exactly did it deform and mess up that hobbit that got long life out of it? Why does him having the ring cause him to just get messed up or whatever? What exactly did it do to him?

 

What exactly can the ring do? I still don't understand this, it just seems to ruin people's lives but I don't know of what "specific powers" that it holds and how it can be used. Mind you, this will sound stupid to a lot of the fans, but to someone who didn't really pay much attention to the movie in the first place, it's confusing.

[the max 0]

Sauron created the One Ring to rule all of the other rings, and as a result he crafted the ring with all of his power and strength into it. He did this because the mere thought of the ring being destroyed was beyond impossible. The only way it can be destroyed was in his land of Mordor, so he figured that he'd be able to tell when/if someone brought the ring in to be destroyed.

[The Metal Maniac 0]

The Ring can't be used for good because, in the first place, if anyone tried to use it, Sauron would know where it was. Secondly, as they said a few times in the moveis, the Ring answers to Sauron alone. I suppose that means that only he REALLY knows how to use the Ring.

 

The Ring is intrisically evil because it was created by the Lord of Evil specifically so that if it ever became seperated from Sauron, there'd be a number of safegards to help him get it back. Also remember that the Ring essentially has a mind of it's own; an evil one at that. Besides, it's the whole "power corrupts" theory. Even if someone could wield the Ring for a good purpose, eventually the ring would corrupt the user (as it corrupts everyone else) so they'd end up evil anyway. Both Gandalf and the Elf-WOman who's name escapes me refuse the Ring for this very reason; they're so powerful that they COULD wield the Ring, but they know that they'd be corrupted and made evil anyways, so Middle-Earth would STILL be fucked.

 

I think the basic power of the Ring (besides the invisibility) is that it allows the user to dominate wills. Thus, when Sauron has it, he can MAKE Orcs ravage and kill and whatnot. However, I believe that is also one of Sauron's powers, and it was simply transferred into the Ring, hence why he is still able to do it (in a more limited form) before the Ring is destroyed, and why, once it is destroyed, all the orcs just kind of run like hell.

 

What exactly did it do to him?

 

All the Ring really did to Gollum was make him want the Ring more then anything else and live for 500 years.

 

Keep in mind though, that Gollum spent those 500 years in a cave, never coming into contact with any other living creatures smarter then a fish, doing NOTHING but thinking about the Ring and how much he liked it.

 

I think that is what made him go psycho and develop split personalities, one being his regular self, and one being his murdering self.

[Guest Cerebus]

The Ring also was forged using the taint of Morgoth (the Dark God expelled several thousands of years before the War of the Ring) in the Earth. Nobody, not even Gandalf who was actually a demi-god of sorts, could be able to remain completely immune to the essence of the Dark Enemy himself.

[Guest SP-1]

The biggest thing that makes Return of the King suck is this:

 

The "wiping an unstoppable army of ants away with your hand" theory. By this, I mean, its been NINE HOURS of an epic movie, and how do all the orcs and such finally get stopped? By the CGI Pirates of the Carribean simply sweeping them away.

 

Thus, The Lord of the Rings Trilogy is the most ANTICLIMATIC FILM EVER. Still, visually breathtaking, but horrid, horrid ending. The movie should've ended with the hobbits drinking at the bar. We didn't need another fucking half hour of pointless crap to an already too long and dissapointing film.

 

I give the following ratings:

 

Fellowship of the Ring: A

The Two Towers: B

Return of the King: B -

You do realize that these films are character pieces and not action pieces, right? The Army of the Dead and Aragorn's command over them was a sign that he was indeed the long awaited King.

 

Alot of time was spent pointing out that without some massive and powerful form of backup arriving, the battle would be lost. Gondor would be completely overrun and, considering the military force of Rohan was present as well it just wouldn't turn out well without some outside interference.

 

The Dead Army was absolutely neccessary and fulfilled 2 purposes to the story.

[Guest Cerebus]

He has a point even if he didn't intenionally make it. In the books, the Army of the Dead was only a part of the relief that arrives to assist Minas Tirith along with Prince Imrahil from the south and a renewed attack from the city and from the Rohirrim. It's not NEARLY the Deus Ex Machina that PJ made it out to be in the interests of time (although that excuse is highly suspect considering what he left in).

[{''({o..o})''} 0]

Slight nitpick, the army of the dead were dimissed after the Battle of Pelargir, they never made it to Minas Tirith.

[Guest Cerebus]

Pis is correct...been reading too much of Silmarillion & HomE I havn't been able to read the LotR in about two years and am now getting the details confused with PJ's version.

[{''({o..o})''} 0]

CWM passed this site along. Worth a look.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Slight nitpick, the army of the dead were dimissed after the Battle of Pelargir, they never made it to Minas Tirith.

On film they pretty much had to be used at Minas Tirith. Apparently, Jackson didn't want to use them at all, but he feared the fanboy backlash if he didn't include them. Or at least so I've heard.