Ring of Honor 6.18.05 "Death Before Dishonor 3"

[bob_barron 0]

People don't seem to realize Aries has been ROH Champ for 6 months and was running a storyline where he had a bad neck.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I still don't think Punk should've no-sold a Pepsi Plunge and 450 like he did.

[zyn081 0]

How could he be a transitional champ if he held it for 6 months?  If Punk wasn't leaving, would Aries have lost the belt? 

 

Dames

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What I mean is, nothing of his reign was noteworthy and worth remembering.

[bob_barron 0]

Well you're flat out wrong there.

 

His two matches with Gibson, the cage match with Cabana, the 5/7 match v. Shelley and the matches where he won and lost the belt

[Mystery Eskimo 0]

In your opinion. He had a load of great matches in his reign.

[The Dames 0]

How could he be a transitional champ if he held it for 6 months?  If Punk wasn't leaving, would Aries have lost the belt? 

 

Dames

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What I mean is, nothing of his reign was noteworthy and worth remembering.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, that doesn't mean he was transitional.

 

Dames

[Guest JebusNassedar]

People don't seem to realize Aries has been ROH Champ for 6 months and was running a storyline where he had a bad neck.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I still don't think Punk should've no-sold a Pepsi Plunge and 450 like he did.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You think that's bad? At last years TPI, he nosold an Avalanche Brainbuster.

 

But, yeah. As far as this whole thing goes, I'm just going to wait and see. It's too early to judge here. But I do know that storylines that work the smark fans are bad for business, so we'll see if this stands up.

 

And to think, during Aries reign, all of the storylines were great, oldschool UWF-like stuff.

[natey2k4 0]

a 6 Month TRANSITIONAL Champ? That's bullshit.. Aries had a good run. No it wasn't as "great" as Joe's run, but it was still 6 damn months and six good months. I don't know how you can declare him a transitional champ after 1/2 year.

[JHawk 0]

People may be seeing Aries as a transitional champion simply because Joe held it as long as he did. Anything seems transitional after a 20-month title reign.

[Slingshot Suplex 0]

I like Aries a lot but I kinda agree with zyn. Yes, he had some very good matches during his 6 months but his reign will be most remembered for the fact that he ended Joe's.

 

I don't agree about Aries being a transitional champ. I mean about his title run. He had good matches but not a match that really stand out above the others.

[Mecha Mummy 0]

I like Aries a lot but  I kinda agree with zyn. Yes, he had some very good matches during his 6 months but his reign will be most remembered for the fact that he ended Joe's.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Pretty much, but compared to the other two RoH champions so far (Low-Ki who dropped the belt in his V2 defense against XAVIER, and Xavier who won the belt because they knew that an undeserving smarmy punk would draw good heat from the RoH fans), that's not such a bad thing.

[Youth N Asia 0]

I thought Aries would hold the title a couple more months. His reign was handled much better than Ki's or Xaiver's. Low Ki's reign was forgetable, and Xaiver's reign was just completly boring.

 

No matter what, Aries reign was going to be a letdown after Joe held the title forever.

 

So now who wins the title? I wouldn't be shocked to see Aries get it right back and hold it for a few more months.

[Guest *KNK*]

Austin Aries was anything BUT a transitional champion. Do you know what a transitional champion is? A title holder who holds the belt between title changes for complete intention of dropping it back. Examples are such as Chris Jericho. He held the belt so Triple H could get the “big” win at WMX8.

 

Ronnie Garvin, held the NWA title for mere purpose of putting it back on Ric Flair.

 

Austin Aries was a six month champion, granted Six months isn’t long when you follow up a 20 month reign such as Samoa Joe’s but the fact remains that Austin Aries defended the title MORE times then Samoa Joe did at the six month mark by almost double the amount.

 

Austin Aries reign includes more quality matches top to bottom then Samoa Joe’s first 6 months or hell, for the most part of his ENTIRE reign.

 

There’s no way he can be considered a transitional champion considering the fact his reign was so brilliant with the in ring quality and he defended the title more consistently and against higher quality opposition. Austin Aries will likely become the first two time ROH champion and he’ll easily regain his “credibility” that he never lost in the first place.

[Toshiaki Koala 0]

Punk has officially signed a contract, according to Meltzer.

 

Maybe Raw will become watchable... nah.

[Guest *KNK*]

Bottom line is this

 

ROH pulled one over it's fans and it was a great move because it has only spurned more interest in the next show with the big suspense storyline of WHO will take Punk down and if they will succeed in doing so.

 

While it might have left a few fans with a bitter taste in their mouths, the truth is, they only just sold more tickets and DVD's because of this.

 

It's about making money and they did it in a manner that doesnt hurt the product.

 

Austin Aries isn't damaged in any way by this, his reign was a great reign and a reign that had been building to the collaspe of Austin Aries's body. They started building his mountain of injuries well before saturday night's conclusion...

 

His constant defenses were put over and prophetically they said, His desire to prove himself will be his downfall and it was.

 

They foreshadowed months ago that Aries was going to burn out.

 

Aries went through everybody on the roster with the possible exceptions of Jay Lethal, Nigel McGuiness and Azrieal.

 

Hardly names that would conjure up "new roh champion" images.

[zyn081 0]

I like Aries a lot but  I kinda agree with zyn. Yes, he had some very good matches during his 6 months but his reign will be most remembered for the fact that he ended Joe's.

 

I don't agree about Aries being a transitional champ. I mean about his title run. He had good matches but not a match that really stand out above the others.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I thought Aries would hold the title a couple more months. His reign was handled much better than Ki's or Xaiver's. Low Ki's reign was forgetable, and Xaiver's reign was just completly boring.

 

No matter what, Aries reign was going to be a letdown after Joe held the title forever.

 

So now who wins the title? I wouldn't be shocked to see Aries get it right back and hold it for a few more months.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

My point exactly. Im sorry, but when I speak it is always IMO, so no need to get your knickers in a twist. Try to read between the lines and not take everything at face value. The concept of transitional champion is relative. I think 10 years down the line people will be saying o yeah I remember Joe, didnt he hold the ROH title for like ages. Then you say, yeah, but who was that guy who took it off him. For me, that was rushed booking, there wasnt the epic build to that match.

 

IMHO I thought that anybody who was going to win it off Joe was Punk. I believe its streching to compare Aries to Joe. Dont get me wrong, I think Aries is a great wrestler but Joe added credibility to the belt and had way better angles (Punk series, Homicide anybody?). The closest parellel we have to this is Brock-Goldberg.

 

The title should never be vacant. And the person leaving should not win the belt. I personally hate the wrestler is leaving or injured angle and therefore its a foregone conclusion that he will drop the belt . And I think the no problem, lets have a tourney answer is lame. I just think that it should have been done the other way round. Its a wasted angle, of Punk cutting that promo and then rushing out of there, unless he can come back, hence my stating that WWE guys have wrestled on ROH.

 

I just think its lame that Punk may hold the title for a maximum of a month. Technically he can start on RAW or SD or wherever, and shit on the ROH title if he wants to. That will look real good now wont it. And dont say hell never do that, because of VKM opens his cheque book, CMP will be doing a HBK.

[Youth N Asia 0]

I may be alone here, but I'd love to see Cabana take the title off of Punk on the next shows. Let him hold the title for 3 or 4 months as a tansitional champion, then put it back on Joe or Austin

[HollywoodSpikeJenkins 0]

Joe may have had a long reign and given the ROH title credibility...but overall, I enjoyed Aries title reign more. For most of the first year, Joe's title matches weren't that good and he had no feuds, except against Daniels and Homicide. He just went out and defended the title.

 

With Aries, at least, you had the story of him being the one person to beat Joe, his feud with Alex Shelly that ended with a great match at MM, Aries taking over Generation Next (granted, not really doing anything with it), and the fact that Aries was determined to defend the title at every chance he could get to prove himself and his body not being able to take the abuse it was receiving. Aries wanted the world, and when he got it, it leads to his downfall.

 

 

IMO, Aries 6 month title reign > Most of Joe's 20 month title reign.

[Mystery Eskimo 0]

Punk would never "shit on" the ROH title on WWE tv. For one thing, what the hell would be the point? The casual WWE fan doesnt know or care what ROH is, and they're not even close to competition.

[Toshiaki Koala 0]

The more I think about this angle, the more I like it. It's clever and perfectly logical - the departing star gets a final shot at the world title because that's the custom, except this time he actually wins it, and, naturally, refuses to give it up. I would have loved to see a big emotional celebration, but this is something different, and I honestly can't wait to find out what happens next.

 

Oh, and the match itself was great (minus the "delayed selling" of the 450) and should really be considered when the time comes to vote for the match of the year.

[Guest OSIcon]

The more I think about this angle, the more I like it. It's clever and perfectly logical - the departing star gets a final shot at the world title because that's the custom, except this time he actually wins it, and, naturally, refuses to give it up. I would have loved to see a big emotional celebration, but this is something different, and I honestly can't wait to find out what happens next.

 

I agree.

 

I started off without a real opinion on it but I love it right now. The deal with Punk signing up for a defense on 7/8 and that being the only time he has agreed to defend the title for now, is really good. They announced today that Punk has said he'll only defend the championship if he gets to pick his opponent. I kind of was hoping they would do a deal where ROH has to decide who their best chance is at getting the belt off of Punk. That could lead to cool scenarios where ROH might even have to reach out to Homicide (since he is 3-0 against Punk in ROH) to try and get the title off of Punk. Kind of like a "lesser of two evil" things. They wouldn't want Homicide as champion (storyline wise) but he'd be better than a champion that is leaving with the belt. That could still come somewhere down the line though as there are no guarentees Punk is loing the belt on 7/8 especially with a show the very next night.

 

It is a really good angle that adds a ton of much needed suspense to wrestling in general.

[Slingshot Suplex 0]

As far as shocking angles, to me, this was brilliant. The few that actually thought Punk might win probably expected it to be vacated. Instead, he took it and ran. The thing now is....does anyone know for sure when he goes to WWE? Every defense is a potential title change. As long as Punk isn't beating challengers clean on his way out, this can only be good for ROH.

[Jingus 0]

Hes a transitional champ, such champs always look bad. And so is Punk. You dont have 2 transitional champs, one after another.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What else would you call Mick Foley and The Rock in early '99, one of the hottest-drawing periods in wrestling's entire history?

 

This is NOT a big deal. This is NOT the downfall of the company starting right before your eyes. Christ, how fucking stupid do you think the ROH bookers are? Do you seriously think that they'd let Punk job out their champ and then not have him lose the belt in the ring at an ROH show? They KNOW what kind of damage that would do to their prestige. Of course they do, EVERYONE does. Vince didn't let Bret leave the WWF without losing the belt, and Gabe sure as hell ain't letting CM fucking Punk leave ROH without jobbing that title either.

[bob_barron 0]

I didn't like the way everything went down at DBD 3, and still don't but I'm looking forward to going to the NY doubleshot in July.

 

Punk's going to get unbelieveable heel heat. I hope I can get by the entranceway so I can curse him out.

[Dangerous A 0]

I wasn't there for the execution of it all, but I can imagine going to this show and being let down by the finish they went with.

 

That said, I think they have at least generated some buzz as to what is going to happen with the ROH title and all. Also, I agree the way Aries has been booked the last 2 weeks has made him look a little weak, although they at least have played up that his neck is injured and he is starting to burn out from the heavy defenses. Still, a loss to Ki followed by a loss to Punk kind of puts a little tarnish on what I thought was a brilliant campaign with the ROH title.

[zyn081 0]

Punk would never "shit on" the ROH title on WWE tv. For one thing, what the hell would be the point? The casual WWE fan doesnt know or care what ROH is, and they're not even close to competition.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Really now? Because I am sick of reading that Bret would never do that but despite all the assurances VKM still had fits. All it takes is VKM to get out his chequebook and say CMP, how much is going to cost you to shit on the ROH title. You think that is beyond VKM? It wasnt beyond WCW. Youd be surprised what people can do when money is on the table. I dont think he would but... ROH is known by fans alot more than you think.

 

As far as shocking angles, to me, this was brilliant. The few that actually thought Punk might win probably expected it to be vacated. Instead, he took it and ran. The thing now is....does anyone know for sure when he goes to WWE? Every defense is a potential title change. As long as Punk isn't beating challengers clean on his way out, this can only be good for ROH.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Technically speaking yes, unless there is a clause in his contract to the contrary or this was contemplated before he actually signed it. If there is no clause in his contract then he is an employee of the E and does what his boss, VKM, tells him to do. If he doesnt want to and since his name is not HHH, UT or possibly Angle, then he breaks his contract. Then he can get sued.

 

Hes a transitional champ, such champs always look bad. And so is Punk. You dont have 2 transitional champs, one after another.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What else would you call Mick Foley and The Rock in early '99, one of the hottest-drawing periods in wrestling's entire history?

 

This is NOT a big deal. This is NOT the downfall of the company starting right before your eyes. Christ, how fucking stupid do you think the ROH bookers are? Do you seriously think that they'd let Punk job out their champ and then not have him lose the belt in the ring at an ROH show? They KNOW what kind of damage that would do to their prestige. Of course they do, EVERYONE does. Vince didn't let Bret leave the WWF without losing the belt, and Gabe sure as hell ain't letting CM fucking Punk leave ROH without jobbing that title either.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That was a prolonged feud, when a title changes hands it is normally due to a feud. IMHO this was not booked as a feud. This was a shot in a dark, and relatively speaking, compared to Joe, his title reign was not that noteworthy TO ME.

 

Please dont be naive, it all depends on the contract that CMP has signed with the E and when it becomes active. VKM hasnt signed it with Gabe, hes signed it with Punk. If no ROH dates are contemplated in the contract, then its up to VKMs discretion as to whether CMP can defend and not precious Gabe. Heres a thought, if VKM, wonders of wonders, decides to be an asshole about it, hell just "Tell Gabe to fuck Gabe" to quote what he said about Sabu, somebody that he wanted on his show, let alone somebody he considers as being a incy wincy fly.

 

I hope it works out for ROH, cause its a good angle. Its just the problem I have with is that its a bit risky, since the ball is not, or may not be, entirely in the hands of ROH. ROH has already been burned by contracts in the past.

[HollywoodSpikeJenkins 0]

Wow, the way you tell it, Vince McMahon is the Devil.

[Mystery Eskimo 0]

ROH isnt known by 90%+ of WWE fans, really. You're going way overboard with the Vince being an asshole thing.

Edited June 22, 2005 by Mystery Eskimo

[what 0]

5% of WWE fans, at the most, know about ROH. Shitting on them on TV would be pointless and retarded.

[bob_barron 0]

Really now? Because I am sick of reading that Bret would never do that but despite all the assurances VKM still had fits. All it takes is VKM to get out his chequebook and say CMP, how much is going to cost you to shit on the ROH title. You think that is beyond VKM? It wasnt beyond WCW. Youd be surprised what people can do when money is on the table. I dont think he would but... ROH is known by fans alot more than you think.

 

Not really. People might have heard of ROH but I don't think a lot of WWE fans know much about it. Punk doing anything with the title on WWE TV wouldn't accomplish anything.

 

Technically speaking yes, unless there is a clause in his contract to the contrary or this was contemplated before he actually signed it. If there is no clause in his contract then he is an employee of the E and does what his boss, VKM, tells him to do. If he doesnt want to and since his name is not HHH, UT or possibly Angle, then he breaks his contract. Then he can get sued.

 

Punk is working on their next show, and I assume an arrangement has been made between WWE and Punk over the indy dates he can work. They let London work DBD and they let Eddy work an ROH show after he'd won the I-C title.

 

That was a prolonged feud, when a title changes hands it is normally due to a feud. IMHO this was not booked as a feud. This was a shot in a dark, and relatively speaking, compared to Joe, his title reign was not that noteworthy TO ME.

 

 

Actually, Punk had been feuding with Gen Next for quite sometime, and had two previous matches with Aries. Aries also defended the belt an ungodly amount of times, and was going into the match with a badly injured neck. He was ripe for the picking.

 

Please dont be naive, it all depends on the contract that CMP has signed with the E and when it becomes active. VKM hasnt signed it with Gabe, hes signed it with Punk. If no ROH dates are contemplated in the contract, then its up to VKMs discretion as to whether CMP can defend and not precious Gabe. Heres a thought, if VKM, wonders of wonders, decides to be an asshole about it, hell just "Tell Gabe to fuck Gabe" to quote what he said about Sabu, somebody that he wanted on his show, let alone somebody he considers as being a incy wincy fly.

 

Punk is working the NY doubleshot and who knows where they go from here. Obviously an arrangement has been made with Punk and WWE.

[The Decemberists 0]

Punk would never "shit on" the ROH title on WWE tv. For one thing, what the hell would be the point? The casual WWE fan doesnt know or care what ROH is, and they're not even close to competition.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Really now? Because I am sick of reading that Bret would never do that but despite all the assurances VKM still had fits. All it takes is VKM to get out his chequebook and say CMP, how much is going to cost you to shit on the ROH title. You think that is beyond VKM? It wasnt beyond WCW. Youd be surprised what people can do when money is on the table. I dont think he would but... ROH is known by fans alot more than you think.

 

You're comparing the WWF title to the ROH title? Jesus Christ, man, get a sense of perspective.

 

The way you're writing suggests that you think Vince see's ROH as a threat, which is so stupid I'm almost lost for words. It wouldn't supprise me if Vince didn't end up bank rolling ROH like he did ECW at some point. CM Punk will do nothing for ratings in the WWE when he arrives, he will do nothing in terms of publicity like Bret Hart moving to WCW did which you compared it to earlier.

 

All this is is Vince signing up a very talented Indy worker, who just happens to work for one of the bigger indies out there. It's not a big deal.