ESPN sucks, so do thread closers

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

Let's see here...Vince Lombardi, Curly Lambeau, Chuck Knoll, Tom Landry, George Halas, Don Shula, Paul Brown, Bill Walsh...nope, not top 3. Or 5.

 

I'm not gonna argue with you about Lambeau Brown or Halas (I doubt you were old enough to watch them too) but he's better than Shula or Walsh. He did more with less. His Giants team had no business beating the Bills in that Super Bowl, and he's taken a variety of teams to the playoffs. He's proven that he's a winner with many different teams.

[snuffbox 0]

I'm pushing 90.

 

But seriously, Lombardi and those old timers did alot more with alot less. How is a team with Mark Bavaro, LT, and Phil Simms, among others, all that bad? Getting those other teams to the playoffs is nice and all but the only one with playoff success was the Pats, and they lost by a fairly wide margin. On the other hand, Holmgren took two different teams to the playoffs repeatedly and has, so far, 3 Super Bowl appearances...same as the Tuna with one less win.

 

Lambeau, Lombardi, Halas, Brown, Walsh, Shula, Landry, and Knoll have to be ranked ahead of Parcells...Ditka, Madden, Holmgren and Jimmy Johnson are at about the same level.

 

We dont have to be confined to nursing homes to understand how great/important Lambeau/Halas/Brown were to football.

[The Man in Blak 0]

He's got two Super Bowls, he's one of three coaches (Reeves and Holmgren, I believe) to take two different franchises to the Super Bowl, and he's the only coach to lead four different teams to the playoffs. He basically rescued the Patriots from the brink of relocation (drafting Bledsoe, McGinest, Ty Law and Troy Brown in the process), completely turned the Jets around and, while the jury is still out on the Cowboys going forward, I'd say he did a pretty remarkable job there, given what he inherited.

 

Noll and Landry are spectacular coaches, but they sustained their success in an era where there was little roster turnover. To a limited extent, the same idea can apply for Shula (who was at the tail-end of his career when Parcells began his NFL coaching tenure). With all of the success that he's had with so many different teams, I would be inclined to favor Parcells over those three coaches and probably Bill Walsh as well.

[snuffbox 0]

I'm not going to even bother arguing with someone who thinks Parcells is better than Bill Walsh.

[Guest "Go, Mordecai!"]

Parcells got the Patriots to the Super Bowl and lost, then quit because he couldn't be GM (but Belichick could!), didn't do much with the Jets, and didn't do shit for the Cowboys. One and done twice, and losing records the other two years. I think he's just living off one job out of four as one of the all-time greats. To keep saying "I'm retiring!" doesn't help him from an integrity standpoint, either.

[snuffbox 0]

I dont think player turnover can be used to defend Parcells either since he's been so nomadic himself. If anyone should get extra credit for that it would be Cowher or Belichek. They managed to maintain success over a period of time with ONE team during the free agency period.

[The Man in Blak 0]

didn't do much with the Jets

The Jets were 4-28 in the two seasons before Parcells came on board and, in two years, they were in the AFC Championship Game.

 

and didn't do shit for the Cowboys.

 

As I said, the jury is still out, but Dallas had three straight 5-11 seasons before Parcells was named the head coach and they went 10-6 in his first year with Quincy Carter and Chad Hutchinson at QB. If Romo doesn't choke away the hold in the Seahawks game, who's to say how far the Cowboys would have went this year.

 

His disagreements with Kraft are certainly a bit of a mark against his integrity, but it sounds a bit silly to say that he hasn't done anything with the non-Giants stints, when the pieces that he drafted for New England are still playing a critical role in their run of success right now and the other two teams were in considerably better shape than when he got them.

[Guest Princess Leena]

Marvin Levy > All coaches.

 

Fuck winning Super Bowls. The guy is a genius, and can motivate as good as anyone. Even at 80, he could out coach whoever the Bills get as HC.

[Guest "Go, Mordecai!"]

I thought that the thing was that he didn't draft those guys, Kraft or some other GM did, and that's why he quit.

[The Man in Blak 0]

I dont think player turnover can be used to defend Parcells either since he's been so nomadic himself. If anyone should get extra credit for that it would be Cowher or Belichek. They managed to maintain success over a period of time with ONE team during the free agency period.

 

This doesn't make any sense to me at all. You're going to penalize Parcells for having success with multiple teams, but laud Cowher and Belichick for being able to leverage continuity into sustained success? The former would be "revered" as a Marty-esque underachiever, if not for last year's Super Bowl win, and makes for an odd namedrop in this kind of conversation; the latter has had a ridiculous run of success, but has achieved it with a number of former Parcells draft picks.

 

I understand that the current climate of NFL economics, with free agency and the salary cap, make it more difficult to establish continuity from year to year, but I fail to see how that would somehow taint Parcells' run as a coach. Wouldn't more roster instability make his success that much more improbable to sustain, especially across multiple stops on the NFL map?

[Timmy8271 0]

I don't think I can stand two weeks of ESPN talking about how Smith and Dungy are the 1st black coaches in the super bowl.

[The Man in Blak 0]

I thought that the thing was that he didn't draft those guys, Kraft or some other GM did, and that's why he quit.

 

The issues with Kraft were related around a desire to be a fully-fledged GM, but most coaches would normally have some input over selections made in the draft. I will concede that the extent of that input can probably be disputed, though. I don't know that much about the Patriots infrastructure at that time to specifically gauge how much input Parcells had, but I would sincerely doubt that he was left in the dark.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Shula went to the Super Bowl 6 times with two different franchises, has more wins than any coach in history and even coached an undefeated season. I can't see anybody can say Parcells was a better coach than him.

[naiwf 0]

I dont think player turnover can be used to defend Parcells either since he's been so nomadic himself. If anyone should get extra credit for that it would be Cowher or Belichek. They managed to maintain success over a period of time with ONE team during the free agency period.

 

This doesn't make any sense to me at all. You're going to penalize Parcells for having success with multiple teams, but laud Cowher and Belichick for being able to leverage continuity into sustained success? The former would be "revered" as a Marty-esque underachiever, if not for last year's Super Bowl win, and makes for an odd namedrop in this kind of conversation; the latter has had a ridiculous run of success, but has achieved it with a number of former Parcells draft picks.

 

I understand that the current climate of NFL economics, with free agency and the salary cap, make it more difficult to establish continuity from year to year, but I fail to see how that would somehow taint Parcells' run as a coach. Wouldn't more roster instability make his success that much more improbable to sustain, especially across multiple stops on the NFL map?

 

You're VASTLY overrating Parcells' success post-Giants era.

 

| 1983 nyg | 3 12 1 | 0 0 |

| 1984 nyg | 9 7 0 | 1 1 |

| 1985 nyg | 10 6 0 | 1 1 |

| 1986 nyg | 14 2 0 | 3 0 |

| 1987 nyg | 6 9 0 | 0 0 |

| 1988 nyg | 10 6 0 | 0 0 |

| 1989 nyg | 12 4 0 | 0 1 |

| 1990 nyg | 13 3 0 | 3 0 |

 

77-49-1 record, 5 10+ wins seasons, 2 SB wins, 8-3 playoff record in 8 years

 

| 1993 nwe | 5 11 0 | 0 0 |

| 1994 nwe | 10 6 0 | 0 1 |

| 1995 nwe | 6 10 0 | 0 0 |

| 1996 nwe | 11 5 0 | 2 1 |

 

32-32 record, 2 10+ wins seasons, 0 SB wins, 2-2 playoff record in 4 years

 

| 1997 nyj | 9 7 0 | 0 0 |

| 1998 nyj | 12 4 0 | 1 1 |

| 1999 nyj | 8 8 0 | 0 0 |

 

29-19 record, 1 10+ wins seasons, 0 SB wins, 1-1 playoff record in 3 years

 

| 2003 dal | 10 6 0 | 0 1 |

| 2004 dal | 6 10 0 | 0 0 |

| 2005 dal | 9 7 0 | 0 0 |

| 2006 dal | 9 7 0 | 0 1

 

34-30 record, 1 10+ wins seasons, 0 SB wins, 0-2 playoff record in 4 years

 

Total post Giants: 95-81 record, 4 10+ wins seasons, 0 SB wins, 3-5 playoff record in 11 years

 

He was barely a +.500 overall coach if you add in the postseason for the last 3 stops and won ONE lousy playoff game in his last 7 years as a head coach. He's the very definition of a guy who was living on past fame for the last 15 years.

[snuffbox 0]

Shula went to the Super Bowl 6 times with two different franchises, has more wins than any coach in history and even coached an undefeated season. I can't see anybody can say Parcells was a better coach than him.

 

We're dealing with a guy that thinks Parcells is better than Bill Walsh, Tom Landy, and Chuck Knoll as well. He said Parcells is better because he coached in the free agency era, discounted the fact that Parcells packs up every time the going gets tough, and doesn't give Cowher any credit for taking a team to the playoffs almost every single seas also during said free agency era.

[Guest "Go, Mordecai!"]

Reason why Fox sucks:

 

Berrian's amazing TD catch yesterday,

 

"Grossman. He'll go deep. To Berrian. What a play. Touchdown."

 

I liked how Bradshaw sounded like he said "Can you express to n-words what that means to you?"

[The Man in Blak 0]

Shula went to the Super Bowl 6 times with two different franchises, has more wins than any coach in history and even coached an undefeated season. I can't see anybody can say Parcells was a better coach than him.

 

Point taken - I always associate Shula's success with the Dolphins, but I did forget that he did take the Baltimore Colts to the Super Bowl as well.

 

He was barely a +.500 overall coach if you add in the postseason for the last 3 stops and won ONE lousy playoff game in his last 7 years as a head coach. He's the very definition of a guy who was living on past fame for the last 15 years.

 

For one, having a coaching record above .500 for 176 games with three different teams isn't really a bad thing. Parcells had three losing seasons (out of eleven) over that time period.

 

Secondly, consider - once again - where the teams were before he landed there. The Jets were unbelievably bad and he went 29-19 with them in three years. The Patriots almost had plane tickets stamped for St. Louis before he took them to the Super Bowl in 1996. He finished above .500 in three of his four seasons with the Cowboys, inheriting very little (if anything) in the way of talent from the Dave Campo-era.

 

I'll admit that saying that he's a Top 3 or Top 5 head coach may be a tough argument, but I think a lot of people are drastically underrating his accomplishments.

 

EDIT: It'll probably get quoted anyway, but let's snip out the implied ad hominem.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Another coach that should probably be mentioned is Weeb Ewbank who is (to my knowledge) the only coach in NFL history to WIN a world title with two different franchises (two with the Colts, one with the Jets).

[Guest "Go, Mordecai!"]

Lost in the shuffle of how much input Bill Parcells had with the Patriots ten years ago is the fact that now we have a coaching vacancy in Dallas, and Jerry Jones is probably going to go after Lovie Smith. Seeing as Ron Rivera is supposed to be a head coach somewhere soon, is it possible that the Bears let Jerry Jones pay for Lovie Smith in exchange for a handful of draft picks, and just promote Ron Rivera?

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

Do you honestly think that Chicago would let Lovie go after a Super Bowl appearance? If they win the Super Bowl you think they'd be willing to let him go then?

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

Lost in the shuffle of how much input Bill Parcells had with the Patriots ten years ago is the fact that now we have a coaching vacancy in Dallas, and Jerry Jones is probably going to go after Lovie Smith. Seeing as Ron Rivera is supposed to be a head coach somewhere soon, is it possible that the Bears let Jerry Jones pay for Lovie Smith in exchange for a handful of draft picks, and just promote Ron Rivera?

 

Ask the Oakland Raiders how that worked out for them.

[Guest "Go, Mordecai!"]

Do you honestly think that Chicago would let Lovie go after a Super Bowl appearance? If they win the Super Bowl you think they'd be willing to let him go then?

Oh, I highly doubt it, but Chicago sports organizations have a history of letting their best and brightest players and coaches just quietly depart.

[hyperchord24 0]

Marvin Levy > All coaches.

 

Fuck winning Super Bowls. The guy is a genius, and can motivate as good as anyone. Even at 80, he could out coach whoever the Bills get as HC.

You're from Buffalo, aren't you.

[The Man in Blak 0]

I thought that the thing was that he didn't draft those guys, Kraft or some other GM did, and that's why he quit.

 

The issues with Kraft were related around a desire to be a fully-fledged GM, but most coaches would normally have some input over selections made in the draft. I will concede that the extent of that input can probably be disputed, though. I don't know that much about the Patriots infrastructure at that time to specifically gauge how much input Parcells had, but I would sincerely doubt that he was left in the dark.

 

Some clarification regarding this point, now that I've found some articles that shed some light on the Parcells/Patriots situation.

 

This feature, which was written last year, reveals that Parcells had signed a five-year deal with coach and GM priveleges. What's noteworthy, though, is that Kraft was not the owner of the Patriots when Parcells was hired, as Kraft purchased the Patriots roughly one year after Parcells signed on with New England. Also worth mentioning is the state of the franchise at the time; in the three years prior to the hire, the New England Patriots were 9-39, earning a 2-14 record in the previous season.

 

Over the next two seasons with Kraft as the owner, Parcells would return mixed results: he would make the playoffs in his second year with the team on a 10-6, only to lose to Cleveland (and, ironically, Bill Belichick, in what was BB's only playoff win as the Browns' HC). The next season, 1995, would not go as smoothly, as Drew Bledsoe regressed and a young defense struggled to keep opponents out of the end zone. Though Parcells had a well-established track record of success, there were rumblings that he was having issues handling player personnel decisions as well as coaching. Kraft stripped Parcells of his responsibilities as general manager before the 1996 season, appointing Bobby Grier to be his director of player personnel and, in the process, really pissing Parcells off. An incident in the 1996 war room, involving a dispute between Parcells and Kraft over the Patriots' first pick, would widen the gap even further between the coach and the new owner.

 

The decision to reduce Parcells' role in the organization seemed to yield an immediate turnaround, as the Patriots would capture their first AFC East title in ten years with a 11-5 record in 1996. New England would steamroll through the rest of the AFC en route to meeting Brett Favre and the Green Bay Packers in Super Bowl XXXI, but the game was hardly the biggest story; six days before the Super Bowl as Will McDonough of the Boston Globe broke the news that Bill Parcells was going to be stepping down as the head coach of the Patriots after the season. New England would go onto lose to the Packers and the whole Parcells/Belichick saga between the Patriots and the Jets would begin.

 

Parcells was 32-32, exactly .500 over his four years with New England, with one rebuilding year (his first), two playoff appearances, and a disappointing 1995 campaign. To take a look at his impact on the personnel over that period, here's a look at his draft picks during his stint in New England (including Grier's 1996 season, just for the sake of reference):

 

Notables from the 1993 Draft

Drew Bledsoe

Chris Slade

Vincent Brisby

Troy Brown

 

Notables from the 1994 Draft

Willie McGinest

 

Notables from the 1995 Draft

Ty Law

Ted Johnson

Curtis Martin

 

Notables from the 1996 Draft (Bobby Grier)

Terry Glenn

Lawyer Milloy

Tedy Bruschi

Adam Vinatieri (an undrafted free agent)

 

Martin, Slade and Brisby contributed more to the 1996 AFC Championship run and Bledsoe and Glenn's impact on the 2001 is understated (at best), but a surprising amount of the "core" of the 2001 Patriots comes from this era, particularly the defense. Grier's first year on the job was particularly fruitful, but Parcells does get a bit of a bonus for grabbing Curtis Martin, who might have turned out to be an impact player for a long time in New England, had Parcells stayed around.

 

A couple of thoughts about the history of Parcells with New England:

 

1. I completely forgot about Parcells standing up Tampa Bay to go to NBC, and doing it after a handshake agreement, no less. Not exactly a ringing endorsement for his character.

2. The Parcells/Kraft situation was probably rigged to explode from the get-go - Parcells was not Kraft's guy and, given how ambitious Kraft has been with the franchise, it would be hard to believe that he would have settled around for anybody, let alone a guy like Parcells that was bordering on insubordination through his final year there.

3. Having read more about the soap opera that would unfold between Parcells, Belichick, and Kraft over the next five years, I'm not sure there's much that you can really say positively about any of it. I knew it was bad, but never that bad. All three guys come off with black marks, in my opinion.

4. Considering points #1 and #3, I'm willing to concede that I glossed over a fair amount of Parcells' character when making my initial argument.

 

I think, on the merits of his success on the field, Parcells is still a top all-time coach. I would take him over Schottenheimer, over Cowher, over virtually anybody in the era, save for probably Belichick. (That Belichick inherited so much talent from this era is another discussion entirely.) Overall, though, I can see where there's a lot of distrust towards the guy and, ultimately, a lot of irony surrounding his tenure in Dallas. What a crazy career.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

There is article up on ESPN about how great it is for fans that the Super Bowl is in Miami instead of Detroit or Jacksonville like it has been the past few years. Actually, buddy, it means dick to 99.9% of NFL fans. The only people who give a shit about that are writers who get to leave their wives for a week and want the best place to get drunk and laid.

[snuffbox 0]

Sportswriters get laid?

[KingPK 0]

Martin, Slade and Brisby contributed more to the 1996 AFC Championship run and Bledsoe and Glenn's impact on the 2001 is understated (at best)

 

It's not even understated; it's miniscule on the part of Glenn; he played like two games the whole year and was an absolute non-factor in the playoffs. The only positive he brought was that him not playing allowed David Patten to come in and become one of Brady's favorite receivers, and basically one drive on the part of Bledsoe (when he came in for Brady in the championship game and threw a TD; he was your basic Bledsoe for the rest of that game and it was the D and special teams that finished the job).

 

I guess you can credit Bledsoe for biting his tongue and (publicly, at least) not making a big stink over being benched, but I will always view Drew Bledsoe as a bit of a bust because he was supposed to be what a guy like Peyton Manning is today instead of turning into another in a sea of mediocre/decent QBs.

Edited January 23, 2007 by KingPK

[Bored 0]

A Louisville Cardinals fan blog posted a running tally of things Dick Vitale talked about during the Louisville-UConn game that had nothing to do with the game. It won't c&p well so here's the link. They came up with a 156 different items. Shockingly Duke was mentioned.

[Black Lushus 0]

Sportswriters get laid?

 

I would imagine Michael Smith can probably get a good share of poon...I bet Woody Paige can too!

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

Sportswriters get laid?

 

I'm not sure, but it seems that it would be a hell of a lot easier to do in Miami than Detroit.