Chris Benoit Dead - Toxicology results released

[The Niggardly King 0]

[Jingus 0]

I'm not so delusional that I don't believe Benoit did it, but I'm still finding it hard to think that he killed his own son with the Crippler Crossface. Is there no other possible choke positions where there could be pressure on the victim's arm and using your arms to choke the victim (As I guess throttling with the hands was ruled out due to lack of bruising on the neck)?

Same here. I think people are jumping the gun on this one. In theory, ANY kind of rear chokehold could be said to be a "Crossface variation".

 

The doctors only confirmed that the marks on the neck were inconsistent with being strangled by hands. Now, that's actually a very inefficient and iffy way to kill someone, a human being's fingers just aren't that strong, it takes forever. Doing it from behind with a jiujitsu-style choke is much quicker and more sure. Benoit would've known that for sure, being an experienced submission wrestler.

 

As for the Crossface, well, try it yourself. Seriously, find some willing participant and try to choke them out with it. It's not that easy. Firstly, it's not designed to be a choke at all; Benoit's hands are aCROSS the FACE, not the throat. Yes, I know that it can be modified, like in the finish of the match against Jericho at Judgement Day 2000. But it's actually pretty hard to put that much pressure on the windpipe from that angle. With the true crossface, you're sitting beside the opponent, with very little of your weight on top of them, pulling backwards, without that much leverage. Like I said, try it yourself (and try not to break their neck, pleez, that's the LAST thing the media needs right now is to hear about some mark who killed someone with Benoit's move). You almost HAVE to move to a different position, let the other person carry your weight, in order to do real permanent damage. And once you move and change the angle of the hold, it ain't the crossface anymore.

 

So unless it's confirmed by the medical examiners that it was indeed the crossface (which I doubt), for christ's sake stop going around and screaming OMG HE KILD THEM WIT CRIPLER CROSPHASE" like a bunch of marks.

[The Niggardly King 0]

It's possible he used his hands to smother him using the crossface.

[Perfection 0]

Chris Benoit is starting to make Ted Bundy look like a pretty stand-up guy. Killed his son with his own WRESTLING FINISHING MOVE? You can't fucking make this stuff up. That is probably the most disgusting thing I've ever read.

 

Well to be honest this is pure speculation based on the bruises. Considering how big benoit was and how small his son was, I do have to wonder if there was enough struggle to even be any bruises. I'm not saying it didn't happen but on the other hand, how hard would it have to be for a man his size and strength to hold a small boy that size? There would have to be enough force/struggle on the boy's part to make any bruises and I just don't know about that. For all we know the boy could have put up a struggle, benoit slapped his arm away and just joked him with a rear naked choke and the end result is roughly the same.

[Chalmation 0]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSMdiq_QOGc

 

his last match

 

if you don't want to watch it or just can't bring yourself to you don't have to

 

if i had to point out anything, it's the way his fingers trail off the ECW belt afterwards, kind of like when you just can't bring yourself to leave someone or something but you have to. if he knew he was gonna do what he did the weekend afterwards, i wonder what he was thinking in that moment, the last one anyone saw of him on TV or in the arena

[Jingus 0]

Well to be honest this is pure speculation based on the bruises. Considering how big benoit was and how small his son was, I do have to wonder if there was enough struggle to even be any bruises. I'm not saying it didn't happen but on the other hand, how hard would it have to be for a man his size and strength to hold a small boy that size? There would have to be enough force/struggle on the boy's part to make any bruises and I just don't know about that. For all we know the boy could have put up a struggle, benoit slapped his arm away and just joked him with a rear naked choke and the end result is roughly the same.

Someone doesn't have to struggle to cause bruises. If you're choking someone with enough force to kill them, you're gonna leave bruises on their neck, period.

 

Also, about the size difference, yeah, forgot about that. It'd be almost impossible for him to put a real crossface on someone that tiny. It was just a simple rear choke in all likelihood. (The important part is that he killed his son, not that there's a chance he might have used his trademark hold to do so.)

[Kurt Angle Mark 0]

Well Written article from a Baltimore Sun writer which I got from the L.A. Times website

 

 

By Childs Walker, Baltimore Sun

July 1, 2007

 

This might be hard for non-wrestling fans to understand, but to those who loved Chris Benoit's work, the killings at his home and his suicide were as shocking as if Peyton Manning or Tim Duncan or Derek Jeter committed the same acts.

 

He was that good at what he did and that respected by fans and peers for doing everything the right way.

 

As such, the story of how he strangled his wife, smothered his child and hanged himself is as disturbing as any I've encountered. It raises countless questions about drugs, the vagaries of the mind and our propensity for glorifying risk. It offers answers to none of them.

 

First off, shame on all the news hosts who've spent the last few days screaming 'roid rage, as if there's ever a dead-simple explanation when a man kills his family and himself.

 

The sad episode does raise questions about links between steroid use, the frenetic lifestyle of wrestlers and mental instability. Benoit's employer, World Wrestling Entertainment, has already tried to steer coverage away from his possible steroid use (authorities found prescribed anabolic steroids while searching his home).

 

The deliberate nature of his actions suggested anything but a rage, the company said in a news release. Chairman Vince McMahon reiterated that position on the "Today" show, noting that Benoit tested negative for drug use in April.

 

The company's points may be true as far as they go (though McMahon failed to acknowledge loopholes in the testing policy that allow steroid use with a prescription). But depression is actually much more common among steroid users than " 'roid rage," said Dr. Bill Howard, founder of the sports medicine institute at Union Memorial Hospital.

 

Howard called me a few days ago, fuming about the inaccuracies he perceived in coverage of the Benoit story.

 

"It was depression," he said. "That's by far the most common psychological side effect of steroid use. You'll find an amazing number of these users having domestic problems related to depression."

Former wrestler Chris Nowinski, a spokesman on the dangers of concussions, has suggested that Benoit might have suffered brain trauma that altered his mental state over the years. One of Benoit's signature moves was a diving head BUTT off the top rope.

 

Whatever the cause, his end left different feelings than past tragedies in the profession.

 

There is a stereotypical wrestler death. Benoit's great friend and rival, Eddie Guerrero, demonstrated it two years ago when he was found dead of a heart attack in his hotel room the same day he was to win the world championship.

 

Fans mourned Guerrero, remembering his astonishing bag of physical tricks and the outlaw mirth in his eyes and smile. But given his long history of steroid and pain-pill use, his lonely death at 38 fit expectations. It echoed those of so many contemporaries, from Brian Pillman to Curt Hennig to Davey Boy Smith.

 

Benoit's end proved far more disquieting, especially given that he was the model wrestler.

 

In the ring, he could do anything, appearing just as comfortable in a fast-paced match full of intricate moves as in a pitched brawl dominated by bruising kicks and skin-busting head butts.

 

He never missed a date or loafed through a performance. He came off as reserved but unfailingly appreciative of those who enjoyed his work. He enforced tradition and respect in the locker room, demanding punishing calisthenics from any youngster who mouthed off to an elder. He wept when speaking at Guerrero's memorial show.

 

Even his suspected steroid use seemed understandable. He was a 5-foot-10 man whose body was probably meant to carry 170 or 180 pounds. But he fell in love with a business in which the most glorified performers stood well over 6 feet and packed 250 to 300 muscular pounds.

 

Benoit acknowledged the pressure over the years, once telling the Pro Wrestling Torch newsletter that steroids for wrestlers were like cigarettes in the 1950s. Many used them and few contemplated the risks.

 

Benoit's hero, the Dynamite Kid, packed layers and layers of muscle onto a lithe frame and ignored the signs as he lost the ability to walk.

 

That was Benoit's context, one in which stoic men loved their craft so much that they warped and eventually broke their bodies on the altar of performance. When he won the world title at Wrestlemania, fans cried and cheered because the moment seemed to suggest that passion and work and resilience really might be enough in this life.

 

That his wife, Nancy, had filed for divorce and a restraining order less than a year earlier (she later dropped both requests) wasn't known to fans. In fact, he invited his family into the ring to celebrate and often spoke of how he wanted to get home more often.

 

All that explains why fans feel so shaken.

 

We don't know that wrestling led Benoit to the terrible events of last weekend. We will never know what ran through his mind.

 

We do know that wrestlers subject their bodies to immense risks as they live out of hotel rooms hundreds of days a year. We know that countless stars have been unable to maintain stable families or resist the lures of pain-pill addiction. We know that the WWE often gives the greatest rewards to those who build their bodies to the most cartoonish proportions. We sense that these are sorts of things that could make someone unhinged.

 

Some people dismiss wrestling all too easily because of its carnival roots and ridiculous plots. But really, what's so rational about dressing up in colored armor and beating your fellow man as half-naked women cheer you on at the coliseum? I've just described the nation's most popular sport, professional football.

 

And we know that football shatters the bodies of its greatest heroes. Johnny Unitas' scarred knees and gnarled hands told us so.

 

We know that tens of thousands of punches to the head slow the steps and slur the words of courageous boxers. We're reminded every time Muhammad Ali appears in public.

 

We know that a car traveling 200 miles an hour can spin out of control even when guided by the most skilled hand. Dale Earnhardt's demise at Daytona attested to that.

 

No, it won't do to dismiss the implications of Benoit's death simply because he was a wrestler.

 

As a culture, we've decided that consenting adults are allowed to push themselves past safe limits for our entertainment and their reward. Drug testing and better medical care and safety precautions can lessen many of these risks but cannot stamp them out.

 

I don't know about you, but when a boxer loses his life in the ring or a football player is crippled or a wrestler turns up dead in his hotel room, I feel complicit.

 

If I know these acts are so destructive, why do I watch? Do I simply lack the moral fortitude to look past my desire to be entertained? I fear the answer is yes.

 

In the last few days, scores of wrestling fans have said on message boards that Benoit's death will kill their love of the spectacle. Many more have said that one man's deranged acts shouldn't end an art loved by so many. I agree with the latter and yet, I wonder.

[Perfection 0]

Well to be honest this is pure speculation based on the bruises. Considering how big benoit was and how small his son was, I do have to wonder if there was enough struggle to even be any bruises. I'm not saying it didn't happen but on the other hand, how hard would it have to be for a man his size and strength to hold a small boy that size? There would have to be enough force/struggle on the boy's part to make any bruises and I just don't know about that. For all we know the boy could have put up a struggle, benoit slapped his arm away and just joked him with a rear naked choke and the end result is roughly the same.

Someone doesn't have to struggle to cause bruises. If you're choking someone with enough force to kill them, you're gonna leave bruises on their neck, period.

 

Also, about the size difference, yeah, forgot about that. It'd be almost impossible for him to put a real crossface on someone that tiny. It was just a simple rear choke in all likelihood. (The important part is that he killed his son, not that there's a chance he might have used his trademark hold to do so.)

 

I was mainly referring to the references of the bruises on his arm but otherwise, I 100% agree. I was going to back and edit to say that this doesn't take away from the fact that killing his son (and wife) was pure evil, regardless of the exact details of how he did it.

[Bruiser Chong 0]

Anyone who owns the Hard Knocks DVD and doesn't think they'll be able to watch/enjoy it again should be tossing it up on eBay. I'm seeing them go for $40 and higher. I had one in my eBay store listed at $9.95 that went in a snap Monday evening. I've still got my own copy, though. Not sure what I'll do with it. I'm one of the guys who feels he's going to have difficulty enjoying Benoit's matches. That and I haven't watched the DVD at all in two years.

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

Its a completely selfish post here...but I don't actually know what I'm going to feel the next time I watch a Benoit match.

 

It's not an important comment by any means...but I get the feeling I'm not the only one who's thought on those terms.

 

I'm not ready now. That much I know.

 

I just wonder if I'll ever be able to appreciate how good he was at the thing that I love to watch the most without being disgusted.

 

I'd like to think that I will...

 

...

 

And part of me likes to think that I won't

[Celtic Jobber 0]

Here's Bret Hart's appearance on Nancy Grace from Friday night, this one is better than the first time he was on the show, mainly because Nancy wasn't there:

Part 1:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqp8Cdnv2N4

 

Part 2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpwxXJQc5Bo

 

Part 3:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adq7gxUx9VU

[shlidgn90 0]

Is Meltzer saying Vince knew before the show started? If anyone knew first, it would be him. But then why is he going to let his daughter and son in law look like fools by airing them paying tribute to a murderer?

 

You never know with Vince. He has a sick mind, just think about some of the storylines throughout the years.

 

I wouldn't be surprised that a little part of Vince would have loved Benoit to not commit suicide and to somehow avoid any prison sentence (or minimal sentence) so he could hire him again and turn him into the biggest heel in the company's history. "Hire him" under the excuse that a man is allowed to make a living. If that scenario was at all possible (which is not because Benoit would have been in prison for the rest of his days), there's no doubt in my mind Vince would have considered it.

 

 

Don't ever think for a second that Vince McMahon would be the only promoter to ever do that.

If georgia has any type of death penalty, chris benoit would've gotten it.

[Scroby 0]

Anyone who owns the Hard Knocks DVD and doesn't think they'll be able to watch/enjoy it again should be tossing it up on eBay. I'm seeing them go for $40 and higher. I had one in my eBay store listed at $9.95 that went in a snap Monday evening. I've still got my own copy, though. Not sure what I'll do with it. I'm one of the guys who feels he's going to have difficulty enjoying Benoit's matches. That and I haven't watched the DVD at all in two years.

If you want to sell the dvd, i say wait another week or two because this will still be on everyone's mine maybe even more so than it is now, so people buying the dvds may pay more in another week or so.

[Steve J. Rogers 0]

I thought Chris Jericho was the Wrestling Conspiracy Victim?

"http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=194116171&blogID=281625909"

 

I'm not sure who I'm hating more at this time, Chris Benoit, or guys like this blogger and those in the comments section who are trying to make this into some sort of government/New World Order conspiracy.

 

Thats the NWO, not the Wrestling one, and FWIW shocking that the blogger tries to make a correlation between the two as well as the Bible placing and the Biblical Four Horsemen of The Apocolypse. I mean the only correlation between the latter is that it was just a catchy phrase Arn Anderson used in a promo about him, Ole, Tully and Ric. There was never any religous or cultist things going on with ANY Horsemen angle.

 

You know, I was in a journalism class the week after the VT tragedy and a discussion came up about whether NBC should have reported the killer's images and what was in his manifesto. I argued that it was appropriate because that way everyone would see exactly who did this, why he did it, what kind of frame of mind he was in, ect. Basically to nip conspiracy theorists in the bud. Of course there will always be people on the fringe, like this guy and Benoit but still.

 

And I'm still find it funny that comments are still being made in the same vein as neighboors of serial killers. WAKE UP, WAKE THE HELL UP! Shouldn't you know by know that it is usually the quiet types that do this kind of stuff? That brash, loud mouth punk gets in trouble because he's doing things in less methodical and more haphazzard fashion not in a carefully planned way.

 

And yeah, watching years of matches and sit-down interviews (as opposed to promos), reading magazine articles and maybe meeting at an autograph session or something all of a sudden makes someone "the last person you'd expect to do something like this."

 

PLEASE, PLEASE stop acting like such marks! In fact, its belief in such notions that give real marks a bad name.

 

Also the guy thinks taking down Benoit from all parts of WWE.com and the Shopzone is a strange and unusal thing, gee I must of missed it where Andre The Giant, Big John Studd, Eddie Guerrero, Mr. Perfect and the other dead wrestlers with merchandise still in The Zone get accused of murdering ANYONE. I can see saying "Why are they still "honoring" a coke head like Henning or whatever the hell Guerrero put in his body through the years and not Benoit" (I can see it, I'm not saying its a right but there is logic in that line of questioning) but Benoit is officially a "DOUBLE FREAKING MURDERER of a woman and a FREAKING 7 YEAR OLD CHILD" and the WWE has every right as a privately owned enity (yeah they have stockholders but still) to sell whatever merchandise they want and to pull whatever merchandise they want.

[Guest beau99]

Is Meltzer saying Vince knew before the show started? If anyone knew first, it would be him. But then why is he going to let his daughter and son in law look like fools by airing them paying tribute to a murderer?

 

You never know with Vince. He has a sick mind, just think about some of the storylines throughout the years.

 

I wouldn't be surprised that a little part of Vince would have loved Benoit to not commit suicide and to somehow avoid any prison sentence (or minimal sentence) so he could hire him again and turn him into the biggest heel in the company's history. "Hire him" under the excuse that a man is allowed to make a living. If that scenario was at all possible (which is not because Benoit would have been in prison for the rest of his days), there's no doubt in my mind Vince would have considered it.

 

 

Don't ever think for a second that Vince McMahon would be the only promoter to ever do that.

If georgia has any type of death penalty, chris benoit would've gotten it.

Except that it's illegal to execute mentally insane criminals, and it's obvious Benoit was mentally insane.

[LooseCannon25 0]

It WAS kind of creepy the way he ran his fingers through the belt at the end of that match.

 

I still think, like I said before, that he put his son in a modified rear naked choke and may have chickenwinged one of his arms at the same time (kind of like Bob Backland's crossface chickenwing)

[Failed Bridge 0]

if the major problems in the relationship were(from what I'm hearing) Chris being on the road and not being able to be at home enough to help take care of his kid then that could have actually been remedied with him going to TNA rather than re-upping with WWE. Tapings are closer to his home and he would have had to been gone for a few days every few weeks.

 

I don't know how the drug testing program is over at TNA but I imagine its got to be better than WWE's.

 

You have to start wondering if when some of these guys that have been in the bussiness for awhile and made their money sit down with their family and decide on whther they stay with the WWE or go somewhere like TNA they start to look at the shit from the past couple of years. TNA to my knowledge has had one death since they started where-as the WWE has a whole list.

 

Edit: And before people start in with the "He was insane nothing could have stopped this" well we'll never know. It would just be interesting to see if he had gone to TNA if the roid use would have stopped (due to TNA stopping him or him seeing their roster and feeling as though he didn't need that kind of bulk to stand out there) and his ability to be at home more remedy the rifts in the family. Its just stuff to think about.

[Toxxic 0]

Except that it's illegal to execute mentally insane criminals, and it's obvious Benoit was mentally insane.

 

Mentally insane? Is there such a thing as physically insane that makes it necessary to use the qualifier? No. You can be mentally ill, or you can be insane, but the two words in the term 'mentally insane' make each other redundant.

 

I can't tell Mike Tenay to stop doing it (goddamn LAX and their 5150), but I can tell you.

[SilverPhoenix 0]

Chris committed suicide which means his family may not be able to collect on the life insurance policy.

 

I'm 99.9999% sure suicide voids the policy.

 

Unless he took out the policy more than 2 years ago, then his ex-wife and 2 daughters are getting nothing, end of story.

[JHawk 0]

And I'm still find it funny that comments are still being made in the same vein as neighboors of serial killers. WAKE UP, WAKE THE HELL UP! Shouldn't you know by know that it is usually the quiet types that do this kind of stuff? That brash, loud mouth punk gets in trouble because he's doing things in less methodical and more haphazzard fashion not in a carefully planned way.

 

You're in a bar.

 

One guy sits in the corner quietly drinking a beer.

 

Another guy is accidentally bumped by a passer-by and, in a drunken state, starts to scream and beat the shit out of him.

 

Who would you be more worried about?

[AntiLeaf33 0]

It's so easy to say "it's always the quiet ones". Some people are naturally quiet and don't end up killing anybody. It's insane to expect every neighbour to feel paranoid or that they need to get the police involed everytime they have a neighbour that keeps to themselves or is quiet.

[AntiLeaf33 0]

And I'm still find it funny that comments are still being made in the same vein as neighboors of serial killers. WAKE UP, WAKE THE HELL UP! Shouldn't you know by know that it is usually the quiet types that do this kind of stuff? That brash, loud mouth punk gets in trouble because he's doing things in less methodical and more haphazzard fashion not in a carefully planned way.

 

You're in a bar.

 

One guy sits in the corner quietly drinking a beer.

 

Another guy is accidentally bumped by a passer-by and, in a drunken state, starts to scream and beat the shit out of him.

 

Who would you be more worried about?

 

That sounds very similar to what George Carlin said in one of his books:

 

"Ever hear someone say, 'Its the quiet ones you gotta watch?" If you walk in a bar and one guy is sitting there minding his own business reading a book, but the other guy is screaming 'I'M GONNA KILL THE NEXT SON-OF-A-BITCH THAT WALKS IN HERE'.................Who ya gonna watch???"

[Jingus 0]

Is there such a thing as physically insane

Yes. Brain damage. Unnatural levels of chemicals like dopamine or seratonin. Various shit like that.

 

I don't know how the drug testing program is over at TNA but I imagine its got to be better than WWE's.

To the best of my knowledge, TNA doesn't have one at all. Not even a pretend "oh yeah we're testing LOL" policy. Remember, they've had multiple guys (Hennig, Crash, Wall) die via ODs during their TNA run.

[AntiLeaf33 0]

Is there such a thing as physically insane

Yes. Brain damage. Unnatural levels of chemicals like dopamine or seratonin. Various shit like that.

 

I don't know how the drug testing program is over at TNA but I imagine its got to be better than WWE's.

To the best of my knowledge, TNA doesn't have one at all. Not even a pretend "oh yeah we're testing LOL" policy. Remember, they've had multiple guys (Hennig, Crash, Wall) die via ODs during their TNA run.

 

Exactly. It's the industry itself. Pointing the finger at Vince does not take care of the issue. As for this generation of wrestlers, I can see them go down the same path. Sure, they don't wrestle as many dates as they did in year past, but they do more hardcore shit which is hard on the body, as well as a lot of the high risk stuff which can be taxing as well.

 

Honestly, I don't ever see them getting the wrestling industry "fixed" in terms of permature deaths, but they sure can do some things to limit the number we have been seeing.

[Steve J. Rogers 0]

Yeah I see the point, I was just doing a stream of conscience rant, and no I'm not suggesting being paranoid and suspicious of everyone, Lord knows I'm kind of a "keeps to himself" kind of guy. I just find it funny how you always see those kind of quotes in every story about serial killers or even about some domestic violence cases.

 

I guess its more of a "how does this add to the story" kind of thing and a smack on people saying "How could Benoit do this, he seemed like a swell guy off of TV/WWE storyline stuff" which is more of an emotional statement than anything.

 

I mean look at OJ for example, everything O.J. Simpson did in public would suggest that he would be the last person to brutally hack his wife and a complete stranger to death.

 

 

[bob_barron 0]

Okay, I was being a dick when you asked it the first time, but here is a serious question for you:

 

 

Do you honestly think, in retrospect, that anyone would be able to pick out a mannerism or anything from his last televised wrestling match that would foreshadow the killing of his wife and child, and eventually his suicide?

 

Can't wait to hear your answer.

 

Is there that many wrestlers that kill their wife and child, and eventually commit suicide?

 

The part where he strangled Burke to death and left a Bible by his body was a hint

[dubq 0]

Anyone who owns the Hard Knocks DVD and doesn't think they'll be able to watch/enjoy it again should be tossing it up on eBay. I'm seeing them go for $40 and higher. I had one in my eBay store listed at $9.95 that went in a snap Monday evening. I've still got my own copy, though. Not sure what I'll do with it. I'm one of the guys who feels he's going to have difficulty enjoying Benoit's matches. That and I haven't watched the DVD at all in two years.

If you want to sell the dvd, i say wait another week or two because this will still be on everyone's mine maybe even more so than it is now, so people buying the dvds may pay more in another week or so.

 

So, a while back it was distasteful, but now it's okay to start making money off of this incident?

[Bruiser Chong 0]

Anyone who owns the Hard Knocks DVD and doesn't think they'll be able to watch/enjoy it again should be tossing it up on eBay. I'm seeing them go for $40 and higher. I had one in my eBay store listed at $9.95 that went in a snap Monday evening. I've still got my own copy, though. Not sure what I'll do with it. I'm one of the guys who feels he's going to have difficulty enjoying Benoit's matches. That and I haven't watched the DVD at all in two years.

If you want to sell the dvd, i say wait another week or two because this will still be on everyone's mine maybe even more so than it is now, so people buying the dvds may pay more in another week or so.

 

So, a while back it was distasteful, but now it's okay to start making money off of this incident?

Who said it was okay? I'm just saying that I'm one of those guys who doesn't feel he'll be really able to enjoy watching a Benoit match again and that even then, I hadn't watched this DVD in a couple of years.

[Guest]

I threw it away a few days ago.

[AntiLeaf33 0]

I don't think I can really throw the DVD out. I did get it on sale for $15, but still. Maybe in a few years I will be able to watch the matches and appreciate his in ring work again, but not a for quite some time.