WWE General Discussion - November 2007

[Vyce 0]

Despite being held on a pedestal, having a highly built return and the power to negotiate himself some great terms, Chris Jericho still has his doubters in the company.

 

There have always been people in management that feel Y2J is not main event material and don't think his promo style "sells Matches." Thus there was some apprehension in thrusting him straight in to the main event.

 

Triple H is one person that isn't 100% behind Jericho and has gone as far as to back Jeff Hardy for a push over Y2J. The recent pairing of The Game and Hardy is Hunter's real life respect for Hardy coming through. He sees him as a hard worker who is deserved on Jericho's current spot.

 

Jericho's performance will be watched like a hawk for the next few months

 

http://www.wrestlezone.com/article.php?articleid=197603377

 

No source on this, but I can believe it. I can also believe HHH pushing Hardy because he in no way sees him as a threat.

 

Bottom line, Jericho's return is more interesting and exciting than HHH's was when he returned after several months off from injury. I'm sure that has to bother HHH on some level.

[GCWPatrick 0]

This is way over due. First off the reason why I was released was because I did not want to do a morally degrading storyline that was already done, plain and simple.

 

Lita was in my opinion the greatest female wrestler of all time (next to Jazz). Lita revolutionized the world of wrestling. She showed that women could be strong, beautiful, and be a draw in the sexiest world of wrestling. She had little girls watching her wanting to become an athlete instead of a princess when they grew up. She was also one of the few women who wrestled men. With blood, sweat, tears and a broken neck later, she earned the respect of everyone in the wrestling business. So the WWE had the bright idea of turning her personal business into a public free for all. Sure that "storyline" transformed a well-loved babyface into a huge heel, but at whose expense? Look at how Trish retired…now look at how Lita retired. On the day of Lita's retirement, the fans didn't just boo her because she had heat; they booed her because despite all that she contributed to women's wrestling, all that they seemed to remember about her was the "slutty" vamp she played on TV.

 

I am nowhere as accomplished as she was, so imagine what that type of role would have done to me. I have seen a lot of people sell their souls to this business for whatever reason, but I stand strong to what I believe in. I feel like now that I am not in the WWE there is a lot of b.s. talk of me being a difficult person or having a huge ego, believe what you want that is not the case.

 

I just want to thank all of the fans that supported me through everything. I also want to thank some really cool people who genuinely saw potential in my talent, and who helped train me: Dave Finlay, Booker T, Queen Sharmell and their Pro Wrestling Academy. I will be re-launching my new myspace page shortly so watch out for that, there will be some very important news posted there very shortly.

 

- Kristal Marshall

 

Source: kristal-marshall.net

 

According to PWSpyware, the plan was for Kristal to have conspired with Edge to cause Long's heart attack as revenge for Edge being stripped of the World Title earlier this year, thus leading to her being paired with Edge in a Lita-esque role.

[King Cucaracha 0]

Since when did Wrestlezone.com become the go-to for insider wrestling news? Anyone who's read a wrestling board in their life could have come up with that 'article' verbatum, so long as HHH came off as the bad guy and it involved Jericho 'having heat'. They just threw the same old story as always together with a few internet insider buzzwords.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

The Cabinet did sorta feud with Angle's posse at the time of Luther Reigns and Mark Jindrak.

 

True but I never took Angle's group seriously.

 

So with Ric Flair back, what does he do? World Title contender? He left on bad terms, so the must've promised him something.

 

The only promise they should have made is they won't sue his old ass for breach of contract if he returns. Plus, there has been reports that Vince paid off Flair's debt to the IRS. Flair owes Vince at this point.

Vince loaned Flair the money, which he's still paying back.

[Thanks for the Fish 0]

A couple of things - Trish played a slutty role at times in her tenure lest Kristal forget. Also didn't Kristal appear in rap vids before her wwe career? Finally wasn't Bobby Lashley said to be working for her re-hiring? Are we to assume that was shot down as well? Because her speaking out now isn't going to help his cause any.

 

Lita got her send-off because the wwe was worried she'd jump to TNA and buried her out as a result. Look at what's happening to Carlito right now - jobbing to Snitsky and a midget. Trish was leaving the business with the complete understanding that should she ever want back in, that wwe would be her only call. If Lita stuck around longer she might have been recast into a face role, and if she was leaving the wwe on great terms with no thought of TNA she wouldn't have been buried on her way out.

[Spaceman Spiff 0]

Carlito's getting buried because he's lazy, got called out on it on national TV, and seemingly didn't care enough to act on it, moreso than the WWE fearing he may go to TNA. Why would they be worried? Carlito hasn't done shit, and is seen as just a jobber by pretty much anyone who watched wrestling. Hell, I doubt TNA will even consider bringing him in.

[Atticus Chaos 0]

Despite being held on a pedestal, having a highly built return and the power to negotiate himself some great terms, Chris Jericho still has his doubters in the company.

 

There have always been people in management that feel Y2J is not main event material and don't think his promo style "sells Matches." Thus there was some apprehension in thrusting him straight in to the main event.

 

Triple H is one person that isn't 100% behind Jericho and has gone as far as to back Jeff Hardy for a push over Y2J. The recent pairing of The Game and Hardy is Hunter's real life respect for Hardy coming through. He sees him as a hard worker who is deserved on Jericho's current spot.

 

Jericho's performance will be watched like a hawk for the next few months

 

http://www.wrestlezone.com/article.php?articleid=197603377

 

 

Assuming this is true, and HHH has long been rumoured to dislike him so it could be...

 

It does make sense. Jericho has always been an inconsistent wrestler. He can deliver on one PPV and then the next will be terrible. His undisputed title reign proved this. The best time for him was after his world title reign when he was an upper mid carder, that was his level and he was happy with it.

 

Granted, a lot of the main eventers in WWE are inconsistent or just plain bad (Khali, Batista, BDV, JBL when he still wrestled) but they usually have size on their side to carry favour with Vince, Chris doesn't. And I doubt two years away will have improved his in ring perforances. Randy Orton's been on fire lately and should be able to carry him, but regardless of how much everyone loves Jericho, he's always been one of these guys who relies more on promos and talking rather than actual wrestling.

[Boxer 0]

Hey, at least HHH got one thing he wanted, for Y2J got CUT HIS HAIR.

 

HHH - 1

Y2J - 0

[Atticus Chaos 0]

Anybody remember HHH calling Jericho a bitter little man on raw after his title reign flopped?

 

I thought that was pretty low.

[Boxer 0]

Seriously though, anyone have a timeline of the "Heat" between HHH and Y2J? I know it was pretty bad around the time Y2J debuted, apparently put in a storyline immediately with buddies X-Pac and Chyna and then in 2000 when HHH took his heat away from making him look like a chump.

 

I have to wonder why HHH would feel threatened? The man is a main eventer for life. Even if he pulled an Hebner he's still a McMahon. NO ONE can touch him. No Vince, not HBK, not Y2J, not Benoit.

[Atticus Chaos 0]

Seriously though, anyone have a timeline of the "Heat" between HHH and Y2J? I know it was pretty bad around the time Y2J debuted, apparently put in a storyline immediately with buddies X-Pac and Chyna and then in 2000 when HHH took his heat away from making him look like a chump.

 

I have to wonder why HHH would feel threatened? The man is a main eventer for life. Even if he pulled an Hebner he's still a McMahon. NO ONE can touch him. No Vince, not HBK, not Y2J, not Benoit.

 

I don't think it's that he feels threatened as much as he just doesn't like Jericho on a personal level.

 

 

[Boxer 0]

Seriously though, anyone have a timeline of the "Heat" between HHH and Y2J? I know it was pretty bad around the time Y2J debuted, apparently put in a storyline immediately with buddies X-Pac and Chyna and then in 2000 when HHH took his heat away from making him look like a chump.

 

I have to wonder why HHH would feel threatened? The man is a main eventer for life. Even if he pulled an Hebner he's still a McMahon. NO ONE can touch him. No Vince, not HBK, not Y2J, not Benoit.

 

I don't think it's that he feels threatened as much as he just doesn't like Jericho on a personal level.

 

Eh.... I guess that makes sense. Still gotta wonder why on a personal level he does.

 

That reminds me, didn't folks say HHH had it out for Edge a while ago? And how Edge wanted out of Raw and to Smackdown to avoid an HHH burial. Was that ever proven to be true?

[Jingus 0]

HHH has always seemed like he had some kind of personal vendetta against Jericho. Nobody's ever been able to explain why exactly, but it sure as hell does seem like it's there.

 

Carlito's getting buried because he's lazy, got called out on it on national TV, and seemingly didn't care enough to act on it, moreso than the WWE fearing he may go to TNA. Why would they be worried? Carlito hasn't done shit, and is seen as just a jobber by pretty much anyone who watched wrestling. Hell, I doubt TNA will even consider bringing him in.

1.TNA brought in everyone from the Bashams to Test. Billy Gunn still works there. They'll sure as hell bring in Carlito, especially with his old PR buddy Ducth Mantell on the booking committee.

 

2.Please provide specific examples, preferably from matches which are available to everyone on Youtube, of exactly how Carlito is lazy. I'm serious. I've heard the "Carlito's lazy" meme for months, but never seen it myself.

[Wally Balls 0]

Randy Orton's been on fire lately and should be able to carry him

 

Are you serious right now? Chris Jericho has never been a slouch in the ring. If anything, he's up there in the same class of workers as HBK and Cena , and certainly the most versatile worker. I think it's quite hysterical that you're actually suggesting that Orton can carry someone through a match. If anything, people carry Orton through matches.

 

I don't think Orton is the worst in the ring, but to suggest that he's better than Jericho in the ring is absolutely insane. If anyone in the E has the power to carry people through matches, it's HBK and Cena...not Randy Orton of all people.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

I have to wonder why HHH would feel threatened? The man is a main eventer for life. Even if he pulled an Hebner he's still a McMahon. NO ONE can touch him. No Vince, not HBK, not Y2J, not Benoit.

Over on Wrestling Classics, Meltzer has talked in-depth about this, including Hunter's burying of Jericho when Jericho first came in, which was basically down to Hunter feeling it was his time to be on top and he wasn't about to let anyone else who could rival him become any kind of threat, hence Jericho's treatment. As for Hunter feeling 'threatened' by other people when he has ho real need to be, it was ascribed to Hunter wanting to be the single top star rather than one of a group of top stars. While that seems to make little sense on the surface, because a group of top stars means the company makes more money than if it has just one top star, the reasons why a person in a position of power should feel threatened often don't make sense.

[Boxer 0]

I have to wonder why HHH would feel threatened? The man is a main eventer for life. Even if he pulled an Hebner he's still a McMahon. NO ONE can touch him. No Vince, not HBK, not Y2J, not Benoit.

Over on Wrestling Classics, Meltzer has talked in-depth about this, including Hunter's burying of Jericho when Jericho first came in, which was basically down to Hunter feeling it was his time to be on top and he wasn't about to let anyone else who could rival him become any kind of threat, hence Jericho's treatment. As for Hunter feeling 'threatened' by other people when he has ho real need to be, it was ascribed to Hunter wanting to be the single top star rather than one of a group of top stars. While that seems to make little sense on the surface, because a group of top stars means the company makes more money than if it has just one top star, the reasons why a person in a position of power should feel threatened often don't make sense.

 

So I've read some stuff on Rock and Austin both having "problems" with HHH. Did he ever try to stop Brock's mega push? We all know he derailed Angle with the Steph storyline. I guess the only guy he's never crossed was Taker right?

 

And for good times sakes, remember HHH's 2002-03 burial list?

 

Booker T - Gotta love the 10 second pause before pinning him after the pedigree, and the "your people" comment. What's up with that?

Kane - Taking his mask and IC title and Katie Vick

RVD - He never had a chance

Goldberg - Beat him in the Elimination chamber in biker shorts and did nothing, awesome

Jericho - So much for undisputed champion!

Steiner - What a great rumble match

Hurricane - so much for rock putting him over

 

Ah, I miss those days.

 

So my question is, how did Benoit avoid getting jobbed out and why did HHH allow him to go over at Mania? That was kinda shocking, considering how Hall and Nash felt about Benoit and Gurerreo.

[The Niggardly King 0]

Despite being held on a pedestal, having a highly built return and the power to negotiate himself some great terms, Chris Jericho still has his doubters in the company.

 

There have always been people in management that feel Y2J is not main event material and don't think his promo style "sells Matches." Thus there was some apprehension in thrusting him straight in to the main event.

 

Triple H is one person that isn't 100% behind Jericho and has gone as far as to back Jeff Hardy for a push over Y2J. The recent pairing of The Game and Hardy is Hunter's real life respect for Hardy coming through. He sees him as a hard worker who is deserved on Jericho's current spot.

 

Jericho's performance will be watched like a hawk for the next few months

 

http://www.wrestlezone.com/article.php?articleid=197603377

 

No source on this, but I can believe it. I can also believe HHH pushing Hardy because he in no way sees him as a threat.

 

Bottom line, Jericho's return is more interesting and exciting than HHH's was when he returned after several months off from injury. I'm sure that has to bother HHH on some level.

 

Which is funny, because Jeff is the one guy who could end up sneaking up on everyone's expectations and surpassing them.

[Atticus Chaos 0]

Randy Orton's been on fire lately and should be able to carry him

 

Are you serious right now? Chris Jericho has never been a slouch in the ring.

 

You know, cleaning up Stephanie's dog shit wasn't the only reason his title reign flopped. His match with Austin at NWO wasn't very good, and his wrestlemania match with HHH had people leaving before it was even over. I'd also urge you to watch his dismal performance at survivor series 2001.

 

 

If anything, he's up there in the same class of workers as HBK and Cena

 

In my opinion, Jericho will never be held in the same high regards at HBK, Guerrero, Benoit. He's a good, occasionally great, occasionlly bad wrestler.

 

I don't think Orton is the worst in the ring, but to suggest that he's better than Jericho in the ring is absolutely insane. If anyone in the E has the power to carry people through matches, it's HBK and Cena...not Randy Orton of all people.

 

 

Orton has probably been one, if not the, best in ring performers in WWE this year. Wrestling wise, he's delivered on every ppv this year, and had awesome matches with RVD, Cena, Hardy, Edge and HBK. His selling is some of the best I've ever seen.

 

As for carrying people: he dragged Hogan with a fucked leg to a good match, got a good match out of Carlito, and his bouts with Cody were decent enough. I don't know if he could carry someone completely talentless (Khali) but I do think in the Y2J/Orton feud he'll be doing most of the work wrestling wise.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

I have to wonder why HHH would feel threatened? The man is a main eventer for life. Even if he pulled an Hebner he's still a McMahon. NO ONE can touch him. No Vince, not HBK, not Y2J, not Benoit.

Over on Wrestling Classics, Meltzer has talked in-depth about this, including Hunter's burying of Jericho when Jericho first came in, which was basically down to Hunter feeling it was his time to be on top and he wasn't about to let anyone else who could rival him become any kind of threat, hence Jericho's treatment. As for Hunter feeling 'threatened' by other people when he has ho real need to be, it was ascribed to Hunter wanting to be the single top star rather than one of a group of top stars. While that seems to make little sense on the surface, because a group of top stars means the company makes more money than if it has just one top star, the reasons why a person in a position of power should feel threatened often don't make sense.

Did he ever try to stop Brock's mega push?

Nothing major as far as I'm aware, but it was Hunter's idea for Brock to stop winnings his matches by TKO.

 

...and people leaving before it was even over.

 

That had nothing to do with Jericho and everything to do with Rock vs. Hogan being the real main event.

 

As for carrying people: he dragged Hogan with a fucked leg to a good match, got a good match out of Carlito, and his bouts with Cody were decent enough. I don't know if he could carry someone completely talentless (Khali) but I do think in the Y2J/Orton feud he'll be doing most of the work wrestling wise.

 

You seem to have forgotten the numerous carry jobs Jericho has done over the years, including Hogan and Steiner, as well as getting a legit *** match out of Viscera of all people.

 

 

[Atticus Chaos 0]

As for carrying people: he dragged Hogan with a fucked leg to a good match, got a good match out of Carlito, and his bouts with Cody were decent enough. I don't know if he could carry someone completely talentless (Khali) but I do think in the Y2J/Orton feud he'll be doing most of the work wrestling wise.

 

 

You seem to have forgotten the numerous carry jobs Jericho has done over the years, including Hogan and Steiner, as well as getting a legit *** match out of Viscera of all people

 

And what about the bad match he had with Austin at NWO? Or that dreadful match he had with Regal a few years ago (duchess of queensberry or something)? I remember him botching moves like crazy in a match with rhyno during the invasion.

 

He had two great matches the entire time he was WWE champion (both with the rock at Vengeance and RR) They didn't have any confidence in him as champion because he didn't give them a reason to.

 

Again, I'm not saying Jericho can't be great sometimes, but he can't be great consistently.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

And what about the bad match he had with Austin at NWO?

 

It wasn't great, but calling it bad is a huge stretch.

 

Or that dreadful match he had with Regal a few years ago (duchess of queensberry or something)?

 

And you don't think the booking, with all the rule changes and everything in mid-match, had anything to do with that?

 

Again, I'm not saying Jericho can't be great sometimes, but he can't be great consistently.

 

And Orton can be? Did you see that horrible match with Cena at Unforgiven?

 

[DrVenkman PhD 0]

I could be off since I only saw it once, but the match Jericho lost to Scott Steiner (en route to Scott getting his title match at the Rumble) was probably Scott's best WWE match during that stint.

[The Niggardly King 0]

Steiner/Test Bad Blood was his best match.

[Atticus Chaos 0]

And what about the bad match he had with Austin at NWO?

 

It wasn't great, but calling it bad is a huge stretch.

 

Or that dreadful match he had with Regal a few years ago (duchess of queensberry or something)?

 

And you don't think the booking, with all the rule changes and everything in mid-match, had anything to do with that?

 

Again, I'm not saying Jericho can't be great sometimes, but he can't be great consistently.

 

And Orton can be? Did you see that horrible match with Cena at Unforgiven?

 

- The fact that Jericho couldn't have a good match with Austin (who, despite his injury problems, was still a hell of a wrestler) pretty much summed it up for me. Rock, HHH, or Angle would have went out there and tore the house down. Jericho, for whatever reason, couldn't. They're on a different level.

 

-It wouldn't have been great because of the booking, but it shouldn't have been as utterly abysmal as it was.

 

- You just justified the jericho/regal match by pointing at the booking but don't think having 8 minutes and ending in a DQ had anything to do with that being bad? I wouldn't even call it a bad match because it wasn't even booked as a match, it was Cena throwing lame punches for all of 8 minutes.

[Spaceman Spiff 0]

Eh.... I guess that makes sense. Still gotta wonder why on a personal level he does.

Jericho came into the company as a handsome guy w/ blonde hair, huge hype, & way more charisma than HHH, so it's not hard to see why HHH would feel threatened by him.

 

2.Please provide specific examples, preferably from matches which are available to everyone on Youtube, of exactly how Carlito is lazy. I'm serious. I've heard the "Carlito's lazy" meme for months, but never seen it myself.

Flair's promo on him from that 1 Raw is a pretty big tip-off. Beyond that, I'm not going into a big dissertation Carlito's laziness, except to say I've seen enough of his matches featuring his shitty strikes, shitty springboard moves, and sluggishness moving around the ring to figure out that he either wasn't working on improving or simply didn't care to do so.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Welcome to TSM Mr Keller.

[Mecca 0]

The Jericho/Austin match wasn't that good mainly because of Austin..go watch it. Austin basically refuses to give Jericho any offense, then when Jericho hits some and the crowd doesn't react much he flips out and takes total control of the match...

 

Austins paranoid personality made that match blow for the most part.

 

As far as HHH/Jericho....I'd heard before Jericho's debut Triple H flipped out because he thought Jericho was ripping off his look and he should be made to change it because H was there first.

[DrVenkman PhD 0]

Steiner/Test Bad Blood was his best match.

 

It was pretty damn funny when he fell trying to leap at Test, but that's edited (to the best degree they could) off of the DVD and therefore out of history, so nuts to that.

 

Heel Scott Steiner probably had an OK match against RVD or something that I vaguely recall (perhaps Test/Steiner vs Booker/RVD for the titles?) but I'm going to stick with Jericho doing a great carry job as one of his best WWE bouts.

 

The problem with the Jericho/Austin match may have stemmed from Austin coming down with a case of phoneitinitis due to unhappiness over his current creative direction (about to feud with a drunken drug addict in a low profile Mania bout instead of work with Hogan). I don't know if that bad attitude before walking out (the second time) came before or after this, though.

 

I will admit that their 2001 singles bouts weren't much to write home about either, though. Not sure why two talents like Jericho and Austin never really clicked in there, but it happens.

[The Truthiness 0]

Other then being good on the micc, I'll never understand why people think Jericho is anything more then a mediocre wrestler, whno's only good depending on the opponent. I hear people sayuing ";he carried Steiner to a good match", so what. So did Samoa Joe, and that doesn't make up for Samoa Joe sucking right now, just like Jericho sucked the majority of his last 3 years in WWE.

 

Then there people already saying Jericho is a better wrestler then Orton, right now? Really?

 

Jericho has a chance to be something great, just like he did before, but odds are he'll have a hissy fit and turn in to a"bitter little man' again. I've never been a fan of Jericho, and I don't see that changing anytime soon, I enjoyed his return last night, just like I enjoyed his 1st debut. But I'm pretty sure that'll die, as soon as he turns in to the robotic "Assclown this, junior that, never E-E-E-E-EVER" promo guy again.

 

 

 

[The Buzz 0]

Scott Steiner's best WWE moment was his debut, and that is probably about it.

 

 

Jericho is a good worker, he's not a great worker like a Flair, HBK, Hart, Benoit, etc. Jericho is only bad at times because of his tendency to be stale in his work. I've never really watched a Jericho match and said this is bad.