Best Submission Hold

[RonL21 0]

Did Backlund go against the booking there and refuse to say I Quit? I'm not sure if Bret reversed it or if he just got Backlund in his own move. By March 1995 that whole feud had lost its steam completely. I always thought Diesel made Bret look like a jobber in some ways, since he beat Backlund in 8 seconds while Bret went about 35 mins. with the old guy and jobbed pretty hard.

 

Diesel was crap anyway.

 

Kevin Nash is garbage. He's been involved in so many trash matches, it's not even funny. You win the WWF Championship in 8 seconds against a crazy man, and let us not forget the Fingerpoke of Doom. Worthless.

The 10 year old mark in me from 12 years ago that had the Diesel Hat and black glove disagrees with this post

[King Cucaracha 0]

Personally, the best finishers and by extension submission holds are ones that are credible. So, I'd add Ken Shamrock's Ankle Lock to the list.

 

As far as best looking, I always like the inverted texas cloverleaf. x10 for the "make MsChif kick herself in the back of the head" variation for any SHIMMER fans.

[cabbageboy 0]

Ankle Lock has lost its luster with Angle applying it constantly and guys reverse it easily or make the ropes.

 

Nash had some problems getting over as WWF champ. First off, they all but killed his run out of the gate at the 1995 Rumble when he didn't even really beat Bret. If they were REALLY serious about him as champ he would have gone over Bret in some form, even with some Owen run in or whatever. Second, the WM Michaels feud was badly thought out in that they had a 7 ft., 300 lb. face going against a small heel....it makes no sense. Crowds tend to cheer the smaller man in that situation, and they did that with Shawn there. So after that Vince went with a bunch of huge heels as challengers and that in my view is what wrecked Diesel's title run. Feuding with Sid and Mabel was a terrible idea and produced wretched matches. Aside from HBK at WM they didn't put Nash over anybody with credibility in his whole run. He never beat Bret, never beat UT, not even Bulldog.

 

Add in the fact that Nash was forced into a smiling face role that he really wasn't suited for (and he ranted about this after losing the belt) and he simply didn't get over as champion.

[tbondrage99 0]

I always loved Benoits Crippler Crossface, He always made it look like he was in just as much pain as the person its being done to. Shame we wont be seeing that move on WWE anymore.

 

Well looks like I was wrong on that, take that everyone I called myself on it before you could.

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

The Tazmission (Katah Hajime, or however it's really fucking spelled) is still, for my money, the best submission finisher there is. Can it be reversed? Of course. Taz is on your back, so all you really have to do is get him off your back, which can be done either by flipping him over you or by falling backwards (and, if you're Bam Bam Bigelow, putting him through the middle of the ring). BUT...it can be applied out of anywhere. The half nelson isn't even the integral part of the move: the hand on the throat is. The thumb goes into the carotid artery, the index finger hooks onto the Adam's apple, and you SQUEEZE. That's painful as is. Now lock the arm to counter it the easiest way, pull on the shoulder and push the neck down ONTO your other hand...bam. Perfect. Let's not forget that Taz could easily suplex people with them in the hold (which I believe is how he "broke" Sabu's neck in December '98), adding another element of danger as it could be used to break you as opposed to just choking you out.

 

I've also always loved the Dragon Sleeper, specifically Ultimo's version of it.

 

Something has to be said about the Stump Puller and the NagataLock, too.

[thecitythesky 0]

*

 

Cross Arm Breaker.

[Diamonddust 0]

Ankle Lock has lost its luster with Angle applying it constantly and guys reverse it easily or make the ropes.

 

Nash had some problems getting over as WWF champ. First off, they all but killed his run out of the gate at the 1995 Rumble when he didn't even really beat Bret. If they were REALLY serious about him as champ he would have gone over Bret in some form, even with some Owen run in or whatever. Second, the WM Michaels feud was badly thought out in that they had a 7 ft., 300 lb. face going against a small heel....it makes no sense. Crowds tend to cheer the smaller man in that situation, and they did that with Shawn there. So after that Vince went with a bunch of huge heels as challengers and that in my view is what wrecked Diesel's title run. Feuding with Sid and Mabel was a terrible idea and produced wretched matches. Aside from HBK at WM they didn't put Nash over anybody with credibility in his whole run. He never beat Bret, never beat UT, not even Bulldog.

 

Add in the fact that Nash was forced into a smiling face role that he really wasn't suited for (and he ranted about this after losing the belt) and he simply didn't get over as champion.

 

Agreed on the ankle lock, but when it's put on you for real... it hurts like a mother.

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

I dunno...the AnkleLock does seem as though it's legitimately fairly easy to reverse. As opposed to something even like a Fujiwara armbar, where the applier's weight is across the victim's back while they torque the arm. Something must be said, though, as to how built up Angle has made it when he sits down and grapevines the leg while doing the AnkleLock, considering that means that the move is ON and the match is OVER.

[DangerousDamon 0]

The Tazmission (Katah Hajime, or however it's really fucking spelled) is still, for my money, the best submission finisher there is. Can it be reversed? Of course. Taz is on your back, so all you really have to do is get him off your back, which can be done either by flipping him over you or by falling backwards (and, if you're Bam Bam Bigelow, putting him through the middle of the ring). BUT...it can be applied out of anywhere. The half nelson isn't even the integral part of the move: the hand on the throat is. The thumb goes into the carotid artery, the index finger hooks onto the Adam's apple, and you SQUEEZE. That's painful as is. Now lock the arm to counter it the easiest way, pull on the shoulder and push the neck down ONTO your other hand...bam. Perfect. Let's not forget that Taz could easily suplex people with them in the hold (which I believe is how he "broke" Sabu's neck in December '98), adding another element of danger as it could be used to break you as opposed to just choking you out.

 

I've also always loved the Dragon Sleeper, specifically Ultimo's version of it.

 

Something has to be said about the Stump Puller and the NagataLock, too.

 

The newest version of the Nagata Lock, which I believe is a Border City Stretch, looks like it could do some serious shoulder/neck damage.

 

[Kristianna 0]

You guys have pretty much covered all of my favorites.

 

Crossface Chickenwing was definitely the best, though.

[Vampiro69 0]

Sgt. Craig "Pitbull" Pitman's Code Red was great.

[Mike wanna be 0]

The Tazmission isn't a true katahajime, it's a half nelson rear naked choke. Both are dangerous.

 

The Crossface Chicken Wing scared the everloving shit out of me as a kid, though.

 

Best move is the crossface chicken wing (that hand on the jaw also prevents the person from twisting out of the hold/alleviating the pressure, by the way). Second...I can't believe I'm choosing this but the Masterlock. There's virtually no slip-out escape that doesn't make it ten times worse and the REGULAR damage is enough to pretty much paralyze you, so slipping out is never ever ever an option for any full nelson. Coupled with the size of Masters' arms and the length of time it was unbroken, that takes #2 because most of the other "good" submissions have reversals that anybody can do.

[Golgo 13 0]

I'll never get why Angle went to the Ankle Lock instead of staying with the Crossface Chickenwing.

 

As far as more modern moves go, I'm partial to Lesnar's Brock Lock/Stretch Muffler and the Haas of Pain.

[Lil' Bitch 0]

Angle improved the Anglelock when he decided to sit down and wrap his legs around the one with that had the ankle he was trying to snap though. He gave credibility back to the submission when he remembered to go down on the mat.

 

For me:

 

- Dean Malenko's Texas Cloverleaf

 

- Eddie Guerrero's Laso From El Paso

 

- Brock Lesnar's Yamada Legbreaker (the weird ass looking submission that he almost snapped Benoit completely in half with on Smackdown during their world title match)

 

- HHH's Indian Deathlock

 

- Edge's Figure Four Edgelock (I forgot what it was called, it was like a sideways Sharpshooter painful looking submission, the one he used against Micheals on RAW during their feud in early 2005)

 

- Ultimo Dragon's Dragon Sleeper

 

Maybe it's just me..

 

But I seem to remember Bret reversing the Chicking Wing and using it on Backland to win the

 

I Quit Match at WrestleMania XI....The one where Backland appartently said "I Quit" although

 

Incoherently and Stated afterwards that he'd seen the light....

 

I seem to remember that.

 

And Roddy Piper held the microphone to Backland, who just screamed and that was taken as "I quit"

 

IIRC Backlund fucked up the finish of the match by forgetting to say "I Quit". He said "Yes!" and Piper took that as the forfeit instead.

[evilhomer 0]

Angle improved the Anglelock when he decided to sit down and wrap his legs around the one with that had the ankle he was trying to snap though. He gave credibility back to the submission when he remembered to go down on the mat.

That really just pisses me off more about the ankle lock. As in - Why the flying fuck doesn't he do it all the time?!?

 

This is a question that could easily be alleviated through better selling by the victim and the announcers; victim selling pain to his whole leg, announcers selling the same. But instead it's the exact opposite, victim sells horrible extra pain when he drops down and announcers go on about how nobody ever breaks out when he grapevines the leg.

 

I'll ask again, if this is so, and it is constantly countered from the standing position - why is the dumb motherfucker using the less painful, more counterable variation?

[AntiLeaf33 0]

Angle improved the Anglelock when he decided to sit down and wrap his legs around the one with that had the ankle he was trying to snap though. He gave credibility back to the submission when he remembered to go down on the mat.

That really just pisses me off more about the ankle lock. As in - Why the flying fuck doesn't he do it all the time?!?

 

This is a question that could easily be alleviated through better selling by the victim and the announcers; victim selling pain to his whole leg, announcers selling the same. But instead it's the exact opposite, victim sells horrible extra pain when he drops down and announcers go on about how nobody ever breaks out when he grapevines the leg.

 

I'll ask again, if this is so, and it is constantly countered from the standing position - why is the dumb motherfucker using the less painful, more counterable variation?

 

Because he only gets on the mat when he "locks it in". Lame, I know....but its the only kayfabe answer I can come up with

[Guest RyechnaiaSobaka]

By the way.

 

We were talking about the Cobra Clutch before and how Slaughter used to ragdoll the guy when he had the move applied, whereas DiBiase didn't seem to do that. Well, I was watching the intro to Summerslam 1989 and it turns out that when DiBiase would win a match with the move, he ragdolled the hell out of his opponent too. I guess Slaughter maybe did it more, since Slaughter's bigger also, but I just thought I'd add that.

[Maztinho 0]

I recall Slaughter would Ragdoll everyone whereas I don't recall DiBiase doing it as much or at least as frequently.

 

And the Yamata Lock/Brock Lock II (Torture Rack applied to the knee and flipped into a crab) is also known as the Goliath Bird Eater which should win for coolest named submission hold ever in the history of everything.

[Guest RyechnaiaSobaka]

I recall Slaughter would Ragdoll everyone whereas I don't recall DiBiase doing it as much or at least as frequently.

 

And the Yamata Lock/Brock Lock II (Torture Rack applied to the knee and flipped into a crab) is also known as the Goliath Bird Eater which should win for coolest named submission hold ever in the history of everything.

 

Slaughter was also booked to win a non-squash match every now and again. Not so much for DiBiase with the Million Dollar Man gimmick.

[majormayhem1 0]

My favorite submission hold would be the Indian Death Lock made famous by "Chief" Jay Strongbow. It's not like the Figure Four, where the wrestlers can lay there for 5 minutes and have it still be capable of being a devasting hold. It has to be done right to be effective. It's nice to see Triple H do it, but I'm sure there are smaller names who do it better.

[starvenger 0]

By the way.

 

We were talking about the Cobra Clutch before and how Slaughter used to ragdoll the guy when he had the move applied, whereas DiBiase didn't seem to do that. Well, I was watching the intro to Summerslam 1989 and it turns out that when DiBiase would win a match with the move, he ragdolled the hell out of his opponent too. I guess Slaughter maybe did it more, since Slaughter's bigger also, but I just thought I'd add that.

Slaughter's Cobra Clutch seemed to be presented mostly as a submission, whereas the Million Dollar Dream was seen as a sleeper hold (although technically it is a submission). I dunno if that had anything to do with it.

 

With the popularity of MMA, I'm surprised that noone in WWE/TNA has started using a kimura as a finisher. It's simple, legit painful and you can escape from it, so you could build a story around it.

 

And in that vein, I'd also have to agree about the crossface chickenwing being the best submission.

[AntiLeaf33 0]

Speaking of MMA moves, I'm surprised that no one has used the Guillotine as a submission finisher. It can be chained together with a DDT for extra impact.

[starvenger 0]

Jamie Noble used it for a while - he applied it from what's probably best described as a seated guard, but doesn't use it currently. Certainly he won't get a chance when he's jobbing to Palumbo.

[PILLS! PILLS! PILLS! 0]

Gotta go with the Texas Cloverleaf, although the Anaconda Vice hurts like fuck if you have ever been on the receiving end of it.