On Benoit

[RonL21 0]

[Lt. Al Giardello 0]

[Cowboy Battlenuts 0]

Can't see a difference between Ted Bundy and Chris Benoit? And how is my point about focusing on the negative or the positive not getting through here? We've clearly reached the end of this being an intelligent thread. Yikes.

 

 

[Darth Pipes 0]

I'm fine with them choosing to ignore Benoit. He was a murderer and it's not surprising the WWE would want to distance themselves as far as possible. The big difference between him and Eddie is that Eddie only did the damage to himself.

 

I'm not going to knock the wrestlers like Flair or Jericho or Malenko for what they think about Benoit. I can't imagine what it must be like to come to terms with the fact that one of your best friends committed two brutal murders before killing himself. Now I wouldn't be cheering him but they have to deal with it as best they can.

[ANKLELOCK 0]

I'd love to see what some of you "it's real to me dammit!" Benoit defenders would say if it was HHH who killed his own family in cold blood. Get ahold of your fucking selves.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

Well, congrats. That's (so far) the dumbest comment in this thread.

[Bix 0]

Well, congrats. That's (so far) the dumbest comment in this thread.

Not really.

[Guest LuckyLopez]

I disagree. While he will always have his accomplishments, they're forever tainted by what he did. I don't think many people will remember Benoit, the guy who won the title at Mania XX, but as the guy who killed his kid

I think there's a basic gap that comes between some of the "Benoit defenders" and those who think his career is nothing now. If you connected to Benoit on some kind of personal level and that's why you were such a fan of him, then that's probably dead. And probably rightfully so because it sometimes chills my blood to read some people rationalize his actions and suggest we should ignore them. But some of the people who feel that Benoit's career can or should still be appreciated and that erasing it is silly and a waste just simply never had that connection. They loved Benoit for his work, not because of the man they believed him to be.

 

I never felt "betrayed" because I never presumed anything about Benoit the man. I obviously never presumed he would be capable of what he was, but I also didn't imagine him a good father, good person, or anything else. He was just a wrestler who was one of my favorites. Now, like the people who did connect to him I of course developed some attachment to him over the many years I followed him and thus him winning a title in a special moment was cool to me. But wrestling was a distraction and interest for me and I no more connected with Benoit than nearly every performer I can think of who seems to be some kind of morally bankrupt or ridiculously arrogant or emotionally stunted or completely delusional or an outright criminal.

 

WM XX is probably dead and gone. Very few people will ever be able to appreciate that moment or his title win for what it was, and with good reason. That moment was about respect and love for the man, and when that goes so goes the moment. But I've watched a number of Benoit matches from the '90s lately and I'm enjoying them just as much as I did then. Because I didn't presume anything about the guy and I hadn't followed him for over a decade. He was just someone who caught my eye, had a style I loved watching, and had matches I wanted to rewatch. And I can still appreciate him for that and enjoy his matches in much the same way I did then (although now its not so new so its not the same way).

 

Now, I'm a bit emotionally detached with things like this. I acknowledge that. Since so much of Benoit's character was tied up in how tightly he was wound and that he was a ruthless and rabid psycho... I can certainly see why some would just never be able to appreciate that work anymore given how it feels next to the reality. I've just rarely been deeply affected by stuff like that and I've never really made a personal connection with wrestling.

 

But there are plenty of sports stars and entertainment stars who turned out to be scum. Racists, killers, rapists. Benoit is new and fresh. Its hard for many to "get over" it and many still feel "betrayed." But I think its safe to say that with time will come more people who detach the emotion and can view his wrestling career as separate. And there will be many people who never had an emotion connection to Benoit and who are introduced to his work with the full knowledge of how his life ended. And just like I can find Rosemary's Baby to be one of my favorite films even when I know who the director is, many will be able to watch Benoit/Sullivan or Benoit/Angle or what have you and appreciate them for what they are.

 

There will always be people who can't and refuse to separate the man from the "art." And that's fine, especially since many people view wrestling as something that blurs the line and that you connect to because of that. But with time will almost certainly come more people who have distanced themselves from the moment or never even experienced it. And with that will come a renewed appreciation for his skill and work, provided WWE doesn't succeed in erasing him. But for now, its not even a year past. The wounds are still open for many and its impossible to judge history this little removed from it.

[Guest Bullshiterica]

Someone must've flashed the Bixsignal.

[Bix 0]

Blame Loss, he told me about this thread.

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

What he did in the ring and what he did at his home are totally separate. Why not revoke Flair's induction because of how his first two wives fared? Why not revoke Guerrero's induction because it's his own fault his heart gave out on him thanks to the drugs and steroids?

 

 

You must see the difference between these and KILLING A SEVEN YEAR OLD KID.

[BUTT 0]

Tell Loss that he should come back and post here. We have a new management that's going to turn TSM into a sparkling Christmas tree of wrestling discussion. However, you should also warn him that Dave Meltzer still does not post here.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

I'm not defending Benoit, but why do some people insist on completely discounting the state of Benoit's physical brain at the time of the murders? I'm not saying it is any sort of excuse at all, but the mindset of some people here seems to be "It doesn't matter that his brain was in the state of an 85 year old's with dementia...HE MURDERED A SEVEN YEAR OLD BOY!!!"...as if typing that fact over and over again, all in caps, wins the argument.

 

The Bundy comparison doesn't hold water either...Bundy was a psychopath, yes, but he methodically killed his victims. Benoit could very well have been out of his mind when he killed his family, then himself. Insanity is a real thing, it's not just a buzz word.

 

Geez, it's not like we haven't discussed this to death already anyway.

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

I think when someone compares failed marriage and drug use to murder...reminding them of the murder does win the argument.

 

[Damaramu 0]

I'm with Invader. I see cold blood more as someone who is in control of their actions and mental state and killed because they enjoyed killing.

If the stuff about Benoit's brain is true then he probably didn't know what the fuck was going on. Let's just go put retarded people to death too.

[Damaramu 0]

I think when someone compares failed marriage and drug use to murder...reminding them of the murder does win the argument.

 

This is true too. The comparison wasn't exactly a good one.

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

I'm with Invader. I see cold blood more as someone who is in control of their actions and mental state and killed because they enjoyed killing.

If the stuff about Benoit's brain is true then he probably didn't know what the fuck was going on. Let's just go put retarded people to death too.

 

If he was mentally capable enough to call off of work. Wait a day to kill his son. Put the dogs in the yard. Tell people that his dogs were in the yard. Then kill himself...

 

He knew how to function.

 

And there was time in between all 3 deaths that just doesn't really work with the dementia theory.

 

There is something to be said for what Vince said about Benoit being able to go on the road and make it to the buildings and work his matches and go out and get home and do everything else just as normally as he always did.

 

Didn't he make a doctor's visit the morning he killed Nancy?

 

So...everything else he did was normal...but then he killed his family and himself spaced out over a weekend...and we're to say he didn't know what he was doing?

 

Possible...but kind of too much of a stretch to just let it go.

[Mike wanna be 0]

Except it wasn't a comparison of the actual instances, it was pointing out that "Does it make sense to tie THIS outside influence to THIS person's wrestling career?", when used on virtually any other superstar (HoFers included), is completely nonsensical.

 

Flair was a womanizer, Guerrero was a drug user, so was Hennig, Davey Boy was on the juice, so were a lot of guys, and hell Snuka & Invader #1 were murderers as well...you could even argue Vince as a co-conspirator if you want to pull the old "Vince pushed the steroids users, Vince made people travel as much as they do and wrestle as often as they did, if Vince wasn't like that then maybe Davey Boy doesn't have a heart attack, maybe Hennig doesn't coke himself to death, maybe Crash doesn't choke to death, maybe Owen doesn't fall to his death, etc." card.

 

Benoit's was the worst, that's obvious and nobody argues that fact, but just because it's the worst transgression (OMG MURDER >>>>> TRANSGRESSION, I said it for you, don't bother posting it) doesn't mean it's fair to just slap a double murder/suicide sticker over his wrestling.

 

bps & dementia: Normal day for Benoit, including doctor's visit. Nancy pisses him off, he snaps & kills her. Remains in rage for brief time, comes down, panics, takes time to figure out if he can cover it up. Realizes he can't, realizes his son's going to be up shit creek with a dead mom & murderer dad (Fragile X irrelevant), and 'puts him down' allegedly with the Crossface (I still don't see how the fuck you can use that as an effective choke hold; the fact that he apparently did puts even more weight behind the fucked-up-in-the-head theory: why not use a pillow on the face, or a cord, or a plastic bag or just your goddamn hands if you're going to choke them?). He's already worked out that he's up shit creek, he killed his wife, put his son down for his own selfish reasons (maybe to prevent him ever finding out what happened to his parents; maybe Daniel found out and he needed to kill him so he wouldn't talk, if he hadn't already decided to off himself). Sends dogs outside before the hanging so they don't fuck up the scene he laid out for investigators (Bibles and whatnot), gives Chavo the house number, hangs himself.

 

It wasn't a three day haze, it was a blind rage for Nancy, Daniel's reasons are more up in the air from covering his tracks to putting him out of his misery to 'protecting' him, and Chris was the final step after realizing he had no chance of getting away with it.

[Bix 0]

I still don't get how we can't agree that cheering at the mention of a murderer is a bad thing.

[BUTT 0]

I don't get why people think that his five-star matches or whatever are enough of a positive contribution to balance out his murders. I mean, if the dude cured an infectious disease, I'd say, well OK, I agree, he did something really bad, but he also did good in his life. But to say, "He may have killed his family, but what about his positive contributions?" What positive contributions? He had some good-looking fake fights. So? What good did he do through that?

[snuffbox 0]

They were really good fake fights, though.

[skullman80 0]

I don't get why people think that his five-star matches or whatever are enough of a positive contribution to balance out his murders. I mean, if the dude cured an infectious disease, I'd say, well OK, I agree, he did something really bad, but he also did good in his life. But to say, "He may have killed his family, but what about his positive contributions?" What positive contributions? He had some good-looking fake fights. So? What good did he do through that?

 

Exactly.

[Mike wanna be 0]

They are not balanced out. Nobody says they're balanced out. Everybody on this side says that we choose to look at his wrestling accomplishments separately from his outside-the-ring transgressions, from hazing to abuse to yes, even murder. Unfortunately for those of us that feel that way, no one that feels differently bothers to READ that argument, instead mashing their "OMG MURDER > TEH RASSLIN ACK-YOU-MEN!" macro.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

This is a wrestling board, it shouldn't be surprising that wrestling fans see wrestling as a priority.

 

If this were a star trek board and Sulu offed a couple of people with an icepick, there'd probably be sympathy there for him too.

[Markme123 0]

QUOTE (ANKLELOCK @ Mar 30 2008, 12:06 PM )

I'd love to see what some of you "it's real to me dammit!" Benoit defenders would say if it was HHH who killed his own family in cold blood. Get ahold of your fucking selves.

QUOTE (Lord of The Curry @ Mar 30 2008, 04:17 PM)

Well, congrats. That's (so far) the dumbest comment in this thread.

 

Not really

Really. That was pretty petty.

 

There will always be people who can't and refuse to separate the man from the "art." And that's fine, especially since many people view wrestling as something that blurs the line and that you connect to because of that. But with time will almost certainly come more people who have distanced themselves from the moment or never even experienced it. And with that will come a renewed appreciation for his skill and work, provided WWE doesn't succeed in erasing him. But for now, its not even a year past. The wounds are still open for many and its impossible to judge history this little removed from it.

LuckLopez's post would be on the other end of the spectrum as the most thoughtful comment in this thread.

Ted Bundy brutally murdered people, Chris Benoit did the same thing...

 

Don't see the big stretch.

I would say Chronic traumatic encephalopathy makes this a non-fair comparision.

I have to wonder how Nancy's family would feel about this. The man who killed their daughter and grandson getting praised and cheered by thousands of people? I know I'd be unhappy.

Excellent point. No matter the circumstances, Nancy's family should be taken into account. I still don't like the idea of erasing someone from history, especially someone who was so important to the industry. Having said that, I am at ease with him not being mentioned at all out of respect for the family. I still think it's inevitable that he name will make it back at some point; nothing is forever in wrestling, it seems.

 

Also, I find it shocking that it took 2 pages for my main point(only point?) to be addressed. The only reason I feel the way I do about Chris is because of the brain trauma that has been documented.Without addressing that apart of the arguement, this is turning into a retread of every other Benoit topic. I, now, understand why Czech was worried. Sorry, dude.

[Bix 0]

QUOTE (ANKLELOCK @ Mar 30 2008, 12:06 PM )

I'd love to see what some of you "it's real to me dammit!" Benoit defenders would say if it was HHH who killed his own family in cold blood. Get ahold of your fucking selves.

QUOTE (Lord of The Curry @ Mar 30 2008, 04:17 PM)

Well, congrats. That's (so far) the dumbest comment in this thread.

 

Not really

Really. That was pretty petty.

Maybe HHH is a bad example. If it was Snitsky, then we wouldn't have having this discussion.

[bob_barron 0]

If it was Snitsky, it wouldn't be his fault

[DrVenkman PhD 0]

Well played, bob.

[Guest Bullshiterica]

Ha! Awesome. The subjunctive abuse of both posters makes me sad, though.

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

Bob wins the thread.