Discussion: The Undertaker

[Lt. Al Giardello 0]

I want to see someone who needs it, breaks it.

 

You can't compare this to Ric Flair's final match... Although Flair's retirement match was touching, and a great moment, he hasn't been built strong for years before that. He lost to likes of Carlito, Rico, Kenny Dykstra etc. Taker is still being built like a main eventer, and will likely still be until the day he retires. So him losing to an established star is fucking retarded. I don't care if you hate Taker and his streak. It's the best thing for the company.

[Noah Fentz 0]

I want to see someone who needs it, breaks it.

 

You can't compare this to Ric Flair's final match... Although Flair's retirement match was touching, and a great moment, he hasn't been built strong for years before that. He lost to likes of Carlito, Rico, Kenny Dykstra etc. Taker is still being built like a main eventer, and will likely still be until the day he retires. So him losing to an established star is fucking retarded. I don't care if you hate Taker and his streak. It's the best thing for the company.

 

I wasn't comparing UT's last match with Flair's, I was referring to the time period that Flair was giving back to the business by losing to establish new stars. UT doesn't need to lose to established stars, he needs to work a few programs with developing stars to put them over before he retires.

[naiwf 0]

I haven't really enjoyed the Undertaker since his feud with Mankind. At one point he was probably in my top ten favorite active wrestlers, now I just want him to go away for good.

[King Kamala 0]

See I pretty much have the opposite opinion of naiwf and Noah Fentz, I was never an Undertaker fan as a mark but my respect for him has risen considerably in the past five or six years. I don't know if he's just being saddled with better opponents than he was in his "heyday" or what but I think he's having better matches than ever and is a more interesting worker than he was ten years ago. Sure, he's a complete primadonna and the superhuman zombie stuff gets a bit tiresome but I don't particularly care about that shit.

[The Metal Maniac 0]

I am a fan of Taker but the only guy he has ever truly put over is Lesnar

 

I'd say he did a damned good job of putting Mankind over - sure, he may have won in the end, but Manind beat the piss outta him for a bit and won his fair share of matches, I think.

 

That aside, Undertaker was my absolute favorite wrestler from the time I started watching wrestling around WMX, until like, early 2000 or so. My least favorite wrestler, 9 out of ten times, was whoever Undertaker happened to be wrestling at the time.

 

These days, meh. He's there, I don't hate him, but it's not like he couldn't lose a few feuds and still be just as over, you know?

[naiwf 0]

See I pretty much have the opposite opinion of naiwf and Noah Fentz, I was never an Undertaker fan as a mark but my respect for him has risen considerably in the past five or six years. I don't know if he's just being saddled with better opponents than he was in his "heyday" or what but I think he's having better matches than ever and is a more interesting worker than he was ten years ago. Sure, he's a complete primadonna and the superhuman zombie stuff gets a bit tiresome but I don't particularly care about that shit.

 

I agree that he is a better worker than he was in his early days, but I just stopped caring about him when they humanized him over the years. The American Bad Ass variation was slightly interesting, but for the last handful of years it's almost like he's between all of these different characters that he's played. It's Classic 'Taker when they try to do lame special effects, MMATaker for no apparent reason other than because he seems to like showing off a gogoplata and then he's using moves from all of those different eras but I think what really irks me is that everything about his character is heelish and yet he still plays a face. If he was out there as a heel who didn't give a shit about the fans and was portrayed the same way I could stomach it. It's bad enough that Triple H is doing the same thing and I guess what really bothers me is that young/up and coming heels can't get over on SD because their egos are too big. Faces can get over by coming close to winning, but when your two "locker room leaders" seem to enjoy belittling the next generation in the ring and on the mic I get bored because it's not going to change anytime soon.

[Lazarus 0]

Taker is my current favorite wrestler, but I am tired of his being on SD and think he's gotten stale there. I for one don't want to see a Taker/Trips feud and I also don't want Taker's streak to ever be broken. I want Taker to retire with a perfect WM streak when he does retire, but in the interrim I'd like him to be moved over to Raw.

[PILLS! PILLS! PILLS! 0]

See I pretty much have the opposite opinion of naiwf and Noah Fentz, I was never an Undertaker fan as a mark but my respect for him has risen considerably in the past five or six years. I don't know if he's just being saddled with better opponents than he was in his "heyday" or what but I think he's having better matches than ever and is a more interesting worker than he was ten years ago. Sure, he's a complete primadonna and the superhuman zombie stuff gets a bit tiresome but I don't particularly care about that shit.

 

I would have to agree with this. Aside from his work with Foley and Michaels, I was never particularly high on Taker. He has absolutely turned it up a notch in the past few years. I never even looked forward to his matches up until recently.

[King Kamala 0]

Again, I'm pretty much on the opposite side as you, Naiwf. I think making humanizing him a bit (emphasis on a bit) has made The Undertaker much more interesting. My favorite wrestlers have always been a bit vulnerable. I do agree that they kind of waver on his character though. Honestly, I'd be happy if they ditched the Classic 'Taker supernatural mumbo jumbo bullshit aspects altogether and have him be straight forward, kickass MMA influenced Taker with a dab of Big Red Devil Taker thrown in but I realize that Classic 'Taker is what 90% of fans want to see from him.

[The Truthiness 0]

I am a fan of Taker but the only guy he has ever truly put over is Lesnar

 

I'd say he did a damned good job of putting Mankind over - sure, he may have won in the end, but Manind beat the piss outta him for a bit and won his fair share of matches, I think.

 

That aside, Undertaker was my absolute favorite wrestler from the time I started watching wrestling around WMX, until like, early 2000 or so. My least favorite wrestler, 9 out of ten times, was whoever Undertaker happened to be wrestling at the time.

 

These days, meh. He's there, I don't hate him, but it's not like he couldn't lose a few feuds and still be just as over, you know?

 

Yeah, I guess I can agree with that. Though some might say Foley helped Taker just as much, as Taker helped Foley.

 

[Papacita 0]

I agree that he is a better worker than he was in his early days, but I just stopped caring about him when they humanized him over the years. The American Bad Ass variation was slightly interesting, but for the last handful of years it's almost like he's between all of these different characters that he's played. It's Classic 'Taker when they try to do lame special effects, MMATaker for no apparent reason other than because he seems to like showing off a gogoplata and then he's using moves from all of those different eras

I stopped watching Smackdown regularly in 04 so I haven't seen a whole lot of Taker in a while, but this is the most off-putting thing I see with him. I like his actual in-ring work and dig when he tries to use the MMA stuff, but all of that seems out of place with the whole deadman character. It just irks the shit outta me when I see him go through all the supernatural stuff with the big, dramatic entrance, then when the lights come back on, he just throws his hands up like your average dude on the street. I always preferred the old school gimmick to the new one, but if he wants to wrestle that style, I just wish he'd go back to the old BikerTaker gimmick he was doing prior to Mania XX.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

He's an uninteresting character. 90% of his feuds are: I'm not afraid of you Undertaker! ::cue special effects:: Oh wait, I am. Tombstone, goodbye.

 

And I lost interest in the streak when I realised that he's never going to lose it, so there's no real drama with those Wrestlemania matches.

 

He, rarely, if ever, puts anyone over, and if he does lose (except to Batista), you know there were shenanigans involved.

 

And it's annoying how he gets to take more vacations then anyone on the roster. The guy had off from April-September last year with injury, and then got to take another two month break this year.

This. I don't hate the Undertaker, but I'm not a fan of either the character or the man behind the character. He's more than run his course.

[NyqZoo 0]

The MMA stuff is the worst. I don't enjoy seeing someone put their hands up to box and then go into a collar and elbow tieup. I don't think portraying some holds as rest holds and others similar ones as finishers is a very good idea. A gogoplata, triangle choke, or a Michelle McCool heel hook might seem cool to the MMA crossover fans, but that makes the hammerlock, neck crank, or arm bar that someone else does in their match look like shit. Undertaker has been the biggest perpetrator of this, I bet if Kenny Dykstra wanted his finisher to be pulling guard and going for a kimura, Undertaker would tell him to go fuck himself. Seems to me that he just wants to be different from everyone on the roster to maintain his popularity and position and uses his influence to take a few shortcuts along the way.

 

As far as the streak goes, someone can just beat him in a respect feud just like Flair's last match. Nobody is pissed at Shawn Michaels still. Untertaker can just take a pin, do his pose thing for the guy, and all will be well. However, you could probably sell more Wrestlemanias until he retires with an Untertaker match on the card as long as he's with someone half-way credible.

[Scroby 0]

I've always enjoyed the Undertaker, weather it be his gimmick, his matches, or his enterences. I always look forward to his matches because normally he works his ass off in them and whoever is involved looks good.

[DrVenkman PhD 0]

I will say I always look forward to his entrance if I'm at a telecast he's at. Mania 23 was a fun entrance. I was at a SmackDown taping last October when Kane and Taker were a team against MVP and Matt Hardy. The friend I was with (who is not really a wrestling fan) asked why Kane and Undertaker had "such elaborate entrances" compared to everyone else.

[bob_barron 0]

I've always enjoyed the Undertaker, weather it be his gimmick, his matches, or his enterences. I always look forward to his matches because normally he works his ass off in them and whoever is involved looks good.

 

Is this counting his run from 2000-2002?

[Scroby 0]

I've always enjoyed the Undertaker, weather it be his gimmick, his matches, or his enterences. I always look forward to his matches because normally he works his ass off in them and whoever is involved looks good.

 

Is this counting his run from 2000-2002?

?

Do you mean everything (gimmick, entrance, matches.) or do you mean just the matches were both parties looked good? If you mean everything, then yeah, I did like biker Taker. I really didn't like his music once he stopped using Kid Rock's song but I still liked it when he came down on the motorcycle.

 

Now if you mean where both parties involved looked good in his matches, honestly I can't say yes or no to that because I can't remember his matches from that far back. I was more so talking about his matches currently when it comes to that.

[King Cucaracha 0]

Seems to me that he just wants to be different from everyone on the roster to maintain his popularity and position

 

 

How dare he! Trying to make himself stand out from the crowd in an entertainment field? Anyone would think he was trying to be successful at it! Well I never!

[Lil' Bitch 0]

I was disappointed The Undertaker didn't get that long title reign following Wrestlemania 24, but I'm assuming him being a part-timer had something to do with the title being taken off him.

 

As others have noted, the problem is that since The Undertaker returned to the darkside, they've made him so one dimensional. He's just "The Phenom" and thats it. There is nothing more to his character. And much like HBK and HHH, every single program he's put into is exactly the same, some upstart wrestler says "I'm going to take him down!", maybe wins one match only for Taker to beat them in the end. Rinse and repeat. It's just getting boring because the WWE has watered down Taker so much. Let him speak on the mic again instead of delegating him to to creepy poetry and rolling his eyes to the back of his head because the man can cut some GOOD promos, but keep his Deadman character that way he can build feuds that are more then just about "taking down The Phenom." Also, a nice heel run would be a nice change.

[NyqZoo 0]

Seems to me that he just wants to be different from everyone on the roster to maintain his popularity and position

 

 

How dare he! Trying to make himself stand out from the crowd in an entertainment field? Anyone would think he was trying to be successful at it! Well I never!

 

 

I guess I should have added "at the expense of others". He's just as bad as triple h, he's just a little more subtle about it.

[King Cucaracha 0]

Seems to me that he just wants to be different from everyone on the roster to maintain his popularity and position

 

 

How dare he! Trying to make himself stand out from the crowd in an entertainment field? Anyone would think he was trying to be successful at it! Well I never!

 

 

I guess I should have added "at the expense of others". He's just as bad as triple h, he's just a little more subtle about it.

 

Welcome to professional wrestling.

 

It surprises me how much people still get hung up on this, despite the face about 90% of the top headliners in wrestling have played the game when it suited them. That's the way things work, has been for years. It's not right but it's just the way it is.

[luke-o 0]

I lost interest in Taker since he stopped being Minstry Taker. That was his best run as the character.

 

What bothers me is his character doesn't fit his match style (anymore). He comes out all mysterious and deadly but when the bell rings, he's your average run of the mill MMA fighter. What's up with that?

[Angle-plex 0]

Yeah, I lost interest during his American Badass Run, then they ruined his WM XX Phenom return by making him MMA and shit. He was my fav wrestler until 96 though and I love his entrance.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

Taker is great at pacing a match, and is a good worker when he wants to be. His act wouldn't fly in Japan at any age, but how many WWE guys would?

 

The only problem is that he only goes when he wants to, and the rest of the time... Meh.

 

I think he should job at WM25, but since I'm not planning on going anymore, I kind of hope he won't.

[Maztinho 0]

Taker is great at pacing a match, and is a good worker when he wants to be. His act wouldn't fly in Japan at any age, but how many WWE guys would?

 

The only problem is that he only goes when he wants to, and the rest of the time... Meh.

 

I think he should job at WM25, but since I'm not planning on going anymore, I kind of hope he won't.

 

Actually I think he'd be more over in Japan with the gimmick. They love Undead style gimmicks (See Muta, Onryu (sp?), and that little Zombie Girl who chokeslams everyone in 666)

[Lil' Bitch 0]

The Undertaker needs to keep his Streak intact. If it ends, it loses its elegance and makes his WM history pointless.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

The Undertaker needs to keep his Streak intact. If it ends, it loses its elegance and makes his WM history pointless.

 

No. It wouldn't.

[Lil' Bitch 0]

But its THE STREAK. If it ends, nobody would give a shit about it anymore. Like Goldberg's streak.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

No one will care about a broken streak but that doesn't take away what he has accomplished in the WWF/E, and it doesn't ruin his Wrestlemania legacy. It's impressive enough that he's wrestled at over 16 Wrestlemanias and been successful at every one up to the supposed loss.

 

Really, take some fucking perspective on this.

[tobin 0]

And it's annoying how he gets to take more vacations then anyone on the roster. The guy had off from April-September last year with injury, and then got to take another two month break this year.

 

Your other points are perfectly valid, but I think this is a little petty. Its not like he’s taking the time off for leisure vacations to the Bahamas or whatever – it was to rehab legitimate injuries. As you mentioned he had a torn bicep last year, and it was reported he needed a couple of months off this year to heal more nagging injuries (and his in-ring participation is still being limited due to coming back too early). You can argue that he should tough it out like others may have to at times, but at his age and with the accumulated wear and tear on his body I think its best to heal up where necessary in order to prolong his career as much as he can.

 

Secondly, from a business perspective, the Undertaker character draws best in short spurts of activity as a ‘special attraction’. The character needs constant resting to prevent overexposure, and the periodic absences have really assisted in his longevity as an effective character.

 

As for my thoughts on the man, I agree his character has become somewhat stale with the same old bag of tricks to set up feuds (I groaned when Tazz recently used the oft-repeated line ‘I have NEVER seen the Undertaker dominated like that!’ in regards to Big Show’s latest attack). However, I still enjoy his work in the ring enough to still want him around against half-competent opponents. I thought his recent series with Edge was one of the better feuds, in the ring, of the last few years.