scott keith's wmxx review

[Guest Brian]

Like I said earlier, it wouldn't have been the same match had Benoit not gone over. The story of the match, Benoit overcoming and woorking hard, wouldn't have worked. There's no doubt the way they put the feud together, he had to win. And the match followed that.

[treble 0]

There's nothing wrong with liking a match more based on who goes over. I mean, in game 7 of the ALCS was a great game, but do you think many Red Sox fans are going to like it as much as Yankee fans did? The outcome will affect your enjoyment.

[Guest MikeSC]

Just watched it again.

 

I don't know what I was thinking with the 3/4* rating.

 

...

 

1/4* if that.

1/4*?

 

Man, star ratings HAVE been devalued.

 

DUD --- and it's LUCKY it'll get that.

-=Mike

...Now, replace HHH with, say, CM Punk and you got ***** EASY

[Michrome 0]

If there's anyone more obnoxious than the uber smarks, it's the insane anti-smarks.

 

Nobody would rate that match any higher if CM Punk was in it. I don't think you could honestly watch the ROH 3-way from 2/23/02, and then watch this one, and tell me the work was better in this one with a straight face.

 

It's not as if Indy fans rate all CM Punk matches ***** or anything. Have you ever seen a Punk match outside of TNA? Punk wouldn't have the same type of match, so it's an absurd comparison.

 

You come across so clueless in the above post that I feel embarrassed for you.

[Styles 0]

Nobody would rate that match any higher if CM Punk was in it. I don't think you could honestly watch the ROH 3-way from 2/23/02, and then watch this one, and tell me the work was better in this one with a straight face.

And that's what you indy fans don't get. Rating a match is not ALL about the work. Atmoshphere, story, emotion and suspense all are important factors in taking a match from good to great and great to legendary.

While the ROH all stars can churn out ***** matches everynight at the Boston Armory, it won't come close to the feeling of a Wrestlemania main event delivering on all cylinders and providing an ending of such significance and emotion.

Everyone has their own scale they judge on. That's why you can't compare apples and oranges...

[Michrome 0]

The RoH 3-way isn't even close to my favorite indy match, but I was just giving it as an example. Quality of work does matter in rating a match. That match last night, with the same story and higher quality work WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER. That's why it ain't *****.

 

In terms of telling stories within matches, I see far more complex storytelling on the US Indies today than I see in the WWE, where Michaels pulls a Corino every match to add heat.

 

If heat/atmosphere/attendance is a factor, does that mean everything from WM XIX automatically had an advantage over WM XX because the attendance was more than doubled? Just curious.

[snuffbox 0]

It was definitly closer to 5stars than 2 1/2....

[Use Your Illusion 0]

Wow, this thread is the very embodiment with what is wrong with this place.

 

I shalt never venture into this thread again.

 

UYI

[Guest wildpegasus]

Tawren...if Chris Daniels, Ricky Steamboat, and Mitsuharu Misawa worked the exact same triple threat match at the Tokyo Dome or Budokan Hall or ECW Arena...what would your rating be?

I'd have to say the match to rate it.

Exact same match. Time. Spots. Just those 3 guys at the Budokan or something...whats your score?

 

**1/2?

Tawren often has star ratings that go against the grain for certain matches. It doesn't matter where they come from. He even gave the famous Liger/Ohtani New Japan match a pretty low score as compared to others which is one of the most untouchable bouts ever. Please don't insinuate that puro fans are byist. Yes, some are but please don't put everyone in the same boat.

[Guest wildpegasus]

Like I said earlier, it wouldn't have been the same match had Benoit not gone over. The story of the match, Benoit overcoming and woorking hard, wouldn't have worked. There's no doubt the way they put the feud together, he had to win. And the match followed that.

Exactly. Benoit winning fit the story of the match so his winning does make it a better match. It was designed for the fans to cheer for Benoit to win. (Not they needed any help but the match still helped them along so it did its job) If HHH were to win at the end of the bout the match wouldn't have been as good and would have gotten a lower star rating because that just "wouldn't have made sense". Benoit's victory was the climax to the story that had been building before the match and during the match. Plump any other ending to that match and you don't get the climax Benoit's victory got. Probably the best triple threat overall I've seen.

[Guest Random Hero]

Wow, this thread is the very embodiment with what is wrong with this place.

 

I shalt never venture into this thread again.

 

UYI

You'll be sorely missed.

[DMann2003 0]

I rewatched it again and maybe there was poor transitions, maybe there were contrived spots, but you know what I wasn't looking for them and the emotion of the match got me drawn in more than anything, and the ending couldn't have been better.

 

Was a perfect *****, well nothing's perfect on an emotional level it was *****, so I'll stick with my ****1/2 (just cause it still being a 3-way when it should've been 1-on-1), but it's definetely my fav match of this year so far.

 

Now, I still need to see Eddie/Brock someone get me a copy of that match.

[Guest Besus]

Orton push is going nowhere, there was no reaction when he pinned Mick.

 

There was no reaction when Victoria pinned Molly.

 

There was no reaction when Rikishi(or Scotty) pinned someone.

 

There was no reaction when Chavo pinned Rey.

 

I can go on and I can also list some wrestlers that never get

heat but people here don't get on them like they do Orton.

 

Does Jazz get heat? No but no one never says anything and

does WGTT get heat? No but no one never says anything.

 

Why Orton,is it cause he's getting pushed?

 

and when Orton pinned Foley,the fans by Tazz/Cole said

"Yeah" so stop lying and when you are going to stop denying

Orton's reactions? Orton has got heat the past 6 Raws and

that is fact but you still are going to deny,am I right?

 

Every time you post,you have to say something about Orton

not getting a reaction,it's annoying and people denying Orton's

heat is annoying also.

 

When Orton was shown last night he got cheers and boos

but I'm sure someone like you,AS or some other RVD fan

will deny it.

 

I'm sick of this.

[Guest Random Hero]

Orton push is going nowhere, there was no reaction when he pinned Mick.

 

There was no reaction when Victoria pinned Molly.

 

There was no reaction when Rikishi(or Scotty) pinned someone.

 

There was no reaction when Chavo pinned Rey.

 

I can go on and I can also list some wrestlers that never get

heat but people here don't get on them like they do Orton.

 

Does Jazz get heat? No but no one never says anything and

does WGTT get heat? No but no one never says anything.

 

Why Orton,is it cause he's getting pushed?

 

What was the point in all that? You answered your own question. The reason people get on his back is because he's been shoved down our throats. I'm not an Orton hater, I don't mind him...but I can defintely see why people may be tired of the treatment he gets.

[KTID 0]

When Orton was shown last night he got cheers and boos

but I'm sure someone like you,AS or some other RVD fan

will deny it.

 

Can you possibly elaborate on this point, if you even have a point. What does being an RVD fan have to do with someone's opinion of Randy Orton?

[Tawren 0]

Tawren...if Chris Daniels, Ricky Steamboat, and Mitsuharu Misawa worked the exact same triple threat match at the Tokyo Dome or Budokan Hall or ECW Arena...what would your rating be?

I'd have to say the match to rate it.

Exact same match. Time. Spots. Just those 3 guys at the Budokan or something...whats your score?

 

**1/2?

Tawren often has star ratings that go against the grain for certain matches. It doesn't matter where they come from. He even gave the famous Liger/Ohtani New Japan match a pretty low score as compared to others which is one of the most untouchable bouts ever. Please don't insinuate that puro fans are byist. Yes, some are but please don't put everyone in the same boat.

Do you mean that in a good or bad way?

 

Also, I never said Ohtani/Liger was bad. I called it ***3/4, which is still pretty fucking good. I just said I didn't consider it an all-time classic.

[Guest wildpegasus]

Tawren...if Chris Daniels, Ricky Steamboat, and Mitsuharu Misawa worked the exact same triple threat match at the Tokyo Dome or Budokan Hall or ECW Arena...what would your rating be?

I'd have to say the match to rate it.

Exact same match. Time. Spots. Just those 3 guys at the Budokan or something...whats your score?

 

**1/2?

Tawren often has star ratings that go against the grain for certain matches. It doesn't matter where they come from. He even gave the famous Liger/Ohtani New Japan match a pretty low score as compared to others which is one of the most untouchable bouts ever. Please don't insinuate that puro fans are byist. Yes, some are but please don't put everyone in the same boat.

Do you mean that in a good or bad way?

 

Also, I never said Ohtani/Liger was bad. I called it ***3/4, which is still pretty fucking good. I just said I didn't consider it an all-time classic.

A good way, I guess. I just wanted to point out that you can have different ratings for matches no matter where they come from.

[Tawren 0]

Tawren...if Chris Daniels, Ricky Steamboat, and Mitsuharu Misawa worked the exact same triple threat match at the Tokyo Dome or Budokan Hall or ECW Arena...what would your rating be?

I'd have to say the match to rate it.

Exact same match. Time. Spots. Just those 3 guys at the Budokan or something...whats your score?

 

**1/2?

Tawren often has star ratings that go against the grain for certain matches. It doesn't matter where they come from. He even gave the famous Liger/Ohtani New Japan match a pretty low score as compared to others which is one of the most untouchable bouts ever. Please don't insinuate that puro fans are byist. Yes, some are but please don't put everyone in the same boat.

Do you mean that in a good or bad way?

 

Also, I never said Ohtani/Liger was bad. I called it ***3/4, which is still pretty fucking good. I just said I didn't consider it an all-time classic.

A good way, I guess. I just wanted to point out that you can have different ratings for matches no matter where they come from.

Ah. Alright.

[Brett Favre 0]

Look, it's all opinion. In my OPINION, I think the match was **** 1/2 and half of that was because of it being in WrestleMania, crowd heat, and the what it would mean if Benoit won and HOW he won. So it all depends on the situation. If this match took place on RAW, about 2 years ago, it'd probably be a *** match. Some of us think Tawren is a dumbass because he gave it ** 1/2, but he thinks some of us are dumbasses for giving it over ****. Bottom line, we are all dumbasses because no one believes in accepting other people's opinions.

[AndrewTS 0]

My fellow Foley-hater friend Tawren explained why he rated it that way, and I happen to agree, except I'd say ***. I suppose he probably didn't rate the Taker/Brock HIAC as high as so many others have, so we're probably thinking along the same lines.

 

Except for things like "crowd heat" and "Benoit went over clean with the Crossface," I haven't seen anyone explain why it should it rated that high as far as things that happened inside the ring from the starting bell up until the finish.

 

That's what I'm asking and what Tawren's been asking for.

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

I'm sticking with 1/4*

[Perfxion 0]

I rate the match at ***** because it entertained me and gave an ending I didn't expect. It was a great match. I don't care about anything else like overly contrived spots or anything blown(nothing I saw, unlike in the Jericho match and the CHW match). I rate on my entertainment of a match. That is why I can call Savage vs Steamboat better than any Misawa vs Kawada match I seen, because I was more entertianed by the WM3 match. That is why I think Hogan vs Warrior from WM6 was a ***1/2 match, because it was entertaining to me.

 

People need to take other people's opinion with star ratings as a grain of salt because people rate on different scales. A pure entertainment scale, a pure workrate scale, and anything in the middle will have different effects on the same match. That is why people who argue over how many snowflakes to give should get a reality check. Sharing opinions is one thing, and the basis of this messageboard. But when people argue over how many snowflakes to give a match, it just gets into a petty pissing contest.

[Guest Brian]

I liked it alot. The story was Benoit against the world, really. The man who worked hard all his life earned his way to the top, but is being confronted by not just the champ but HBK. I thought, say the first ten minutes were flowing extremely well for a three-way before it sort of degenrated into that two man-break up scene. Benoit was on the attack the entire match, which he had to be for this to work. He was the fighter. Up until the point where the whole thing culminated, where HBK threw his hatred of HHH aside to get Benoit out of the match. And it backfired on him. And that's where they hit the final stretch.

 

The crossface spots with HHH beckoned back to the 2000 matches. I'm trying to think of the point, whether it was HHH or HBK, that broke the crossface in the ropes by rolling Benoit over.

 

The selling was fine. Nothing really specific to expect.

 

I think it stands up really well with the ROH three-way. I liked that match, but it was pretty spotty and Lo-Ki's selling is downright horrible at times.

 

I thought the crowd played tremendously to this match.

 

There are other spots I could elaborate on if I had my tape on hand.

And I still don't understand the problem with the chops?

[snuffbox 0]

I liked it alot. The story was Benoit against the world, really. The man who worked hard all his life earned his way to the top, but is being confronted by not just the champ but HBK. I thought, say the first ten minutes were flowing extremely well for a three-way before it sort of degenrated into that two man-break up scene. Benoit was on the attack the entire match, which he had to be for this to work. He was the fighter. Up until the point where the whole thing culminated, where HBK threw his hatred of HHH aside to get Benoit out of the match. And it backfired on him. And that's where they hit the final stretch.

 

The crossface spots with HHH beckoned back to the 2000 matches. I'm trying to think of the point, whether it was HHH or HBK, that broke the crossface in the ropes by rolling Benoit over.

 

The selling was fine. Nothing really specific to expect.

 

I think it stands up really well with the ROH three-way. I liked that match, but it was pretty spotty and Lo-Ki's selling is downright horrible at times.

 

I thought the crowd played tremendously to this match.

 

There are other spots I could elaborate on if I had my tape on hand.

And I still don't understand the problem with the chops?

theyre not stiff clotheslines...

[Tawren 0]

I liked it alot. The story was Benoit against the world, really. The man who worked hard all his life earned his way to the top, but is being confronted by not just the champ but HBK. I thought, say the first ten minutes were flowing extremely well for a three-way before it sort of degenrated into that two man-break up scene. Benoit was on the attack the entire match, which he had to be for this to work. He was the fighter. Up until the point where the whole thing culminated, where HBK threw his hatred of HHH aside to get Benoit out of the match. And it backfired on him. And that's where they hit the final stretch.

 

The crossface spots with HHH beckoned back to the 2000 matches. I'm trying to think of the point, whether it was HHH or HBK, that broke the crossface in the ropes by rolling Benoit over.

 

The selling was fine. Nothing really specific to expect.

 

I think it stands up really well with the ROH three-way. I liked that match, but it was pretty spotty and Lo-Ki's selling is downright horrible at times.

 

I thought the crowd played tremendously to this match.

 

There are other spots I could elaborate on if I had my tape on hand.

And I still don't understand the problem with the chops?

theyre not stiff clotheslines...

Grow the fuck up, you dolt.

 

MY problem with the chops was how over-used they were, especially by Micheals: he sucks at them.

[Guest wildpegasus]

My fellow Foley-hater friend Tawren explained why he rated it that way, and I happen to agree, except I'd say ***. 

Except for things like "crowd heat" and "Benoit went over clean with the Crossface," I haven't seen anyone explain why it should it rated that high as far as things that happened inside the ring from the starting bell up until the finish.

 

That's what I'm asking and what Tawren's been asking for.

Ehhh, 3 stars is too low and 5 stars is too high. I'm not sure where I put it but I can say what I think of it.

 

What I said before:

 

Benoit winning fit the story of the match so his winning does make it a better match. It was designed for the fans to cheer for Benoit to win. (Not they needed any help but the match still helped them along so it did its job) If HHH were to win at the end of the bout the match wouldn't have been as good and would have gotten a lower star rating because that just "wouldn't have made sense". Benoit's victory was the climax to the story that had been building before the match and during the match. Plump any other ending to that match and you don't get the climax Benoit's victory got. Probably the best triple threat overall I've seen.

 

I liked the table spot as it had a twofold effect here that the other incapicate the 3rd man spots really didn't. It did what it was meant to do which was incapacitate Benoit in a big way. The crowd obviously bought that and JR helped drive the point home of Benoit being in trouble to the viewers watching the show via PPV. This let Michaels and HHH have an opportunity to finally settle their "10 year" feud and for the fans to get behind Benoit as he mangages to crawl back from near death to continue his 18 year long dream.

 

I liked the HHH blocking of HBK's hand to stop him from tapping. Now before anyone says, "Why didn't he verbally give up?", remember Benoit had his mouth covered. Plus Michaels actually didn't go down for the first part of the tap. So we'll never really know but it still was a nice spot.

 

Like I also said before, Benoit's eliminating of Michaels before the final battle against HHH was symbolic. It was Benoit eliminating the guy who wasn't "sussposed" to be there and finally getting his initial Wrestlemania opponent 1on 1. Benoit clearly eliminated Michaels Royal Rumble style. The only other guy who lasted from #1 all the ways to the end was Michaels. Kind of like a passing of the torch here.

 

There was a good amount of struggle here that's not really present in most WWE matches. For example, Benoit and HHH were really struggling for a while before the superplex took place. There was struggle for the sharpshooters and crossfaces. A nice touch that makes Benoit struggle for the heavyweight belt more meaningful.

 

The story here was strong in the sense that you don't really get stories that are more meanigful than Benoit's lifelong quest for the title. It naturally makes everything done in the match have a stronger life essence. HHH's "invinciability" also works well here because it causes people's hearts to sink down more into their stomach whenever he does something. When he pedigrees someone people get scared. Combine that with Benoit's past of choking and it makes the end all the more dramatic when he's ready to get pedigreed at the end of the bout. That sucks people into the match and makes it more emotional. Benoit/HHH had that advantage here and they used it.

 

I was mostly happy with the performance of Michaels. His moonsault from the top turnbuckle to the outside of the ring on top of HHH and Benoit told everyone this IS Wrestlemania because that's something he doesn't do every day.

 

The match built well. The excitement of it went up and up until it hit a nice climax.

 

The superkick to end all superkicks on Benoit while he had the sharpshooter on Michaels was pretty crazy. Now stiffness doesn't equal a better match but Benoit did pick a good time here to devour a superkick as that would only get the fans even more behind him since it just stuck out so well. It put him over as just that much tougher when he kicked out.

 

The only thing I didn't really like here was that some of the hits that took one guy out were a little weak at the beginning of the match. There were also a few things I wanted to see here but that's just me fantasy wrestling.

[DMann2003 0]

Pegasus, that's the best review of the match I've read so far, you made so many good points.

[snuffbox 0]

I liked it alot. The story was Benoit against the world, really. The man who worked hard all his life earned his way to the top, but is being confronted by not just the champ but HBK. I thought, say the first ten minutes were flowing extremely well for a three-way before it sort of degenrated into that two man-break up scene. Benoit was on the attack the entire match, which he had to be for this to work. He was the fighter. Up until the point where the whole thing culminated, where HBK threw his hatred of HHH aside to get Benoit out of the match. And it backfired on him. And that's where they hit the final stretch.

 

The crossface spots with HHH beckoned back to the 2000 matches. I'm trying to think of the point, whether it was HHH or HBK, that broke the crossface in the ropes by rolling Benoit over.

 

The selling was fine. Nothing really specific to expect.

 

I think it stands up really well with the ROH three-way. I liked that match, but it was pretty spotty and Lo-Ki's selling is downright horrible at times.

 

I thought the crowd played tremendously to this match.

 

There are other spots I could elaborate on if I had my tape on hand.

And I still don't understand the problem with the chops?

theyre not stiff clotheslines...

Grow the fuck up, you dolt.

 

MY problem with the chops was how over-used they were, especially by Micheals: he sucks at them.

Whats so bad about Shawn's chops?

 

I realize hes not a smark wetdream but I dont see anything wrong with his chops. Your really reaching just to be a lil bitch.

[Guest wildpegasus]

I liked it alot. The story was Benoit against the world, really. The man who worked hard all his life earned his way to the top, but is being confronted by not just the champ but HBK. I thought, say the first ten minutes were flowing extremely well for a three-way before it sort of degenrated into that two man-break up scene. Benoit was on the attack the entire match, which he had to be for this to work. He was the fighter. Up until the point where the whole thing culminated, where HBK threw his hatred of HHH aside to get Benoit out of the match. And it backfired on him. And that's where they hit the final stretch.

 

The crossface spots with HHH beckoned back to the 2000 matches. I'm trying to think of the point, whether it was HHH or HBK, that broke the crossface in the ropes by rolling Benoit over.

 

The selling was fine. Nothing really specific to expect.

 

I think it stands up really well with the ROH three-way. I liked that match, but it was pretty spotty and Lo-Ki's selling is downright horrible at times.

 

I thought the crowd played tremendously to this match.

 

There are other spots I could elaborate on if I had my tape on hand.

And I still don't understand the problem with the chops?

theyre not stiff clotheslines...

Grow the fuck up, you dolt.

 

MY problem with the chops was how over-used they were, especially by Micheals: he sucks at them.

Whats so bad about Shawn's chops?

 

I realize hes not a smark wetdream but I dont see anything wrong with his chops. Your really reaching just to be a lil bitch.

I thought the chops Michaels were throwing passed the bill. Nothing wrong with them at all.

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

I've watched it again...I didn't notice the chops right away (not being in the habit of judging every moment of the match until now).

 

WOW.

 

What was I thinking with that 1/4* rating.

 

CLEARLY I overrated again.

 

DUD.