Israel vs Palestein

[Guest Jason]

My view in itself does not agree with any American govt. beleif. America views Israel as a country while viewing Palestein as a terrorist state. That alone speaks alot about America and its land stealing ways. Let me have a chance to explain before the "patriots" of America come out and decide to attack me for my beleifs. I will lay it out simple, and keep it so during this entire post.

 

In World War Two, as we all know the Holocaust caused millions of jews to die. It was mass genocide, a slaughter. Great Britain at that time was a rapidly declining power, still strong in politics, however militarily they were weak. After this tragedy they decided, "Hey, lets make up for there losses by presenting them with a country....A homeland." The Zion movement which took place during the 20's, 30's and 40's became a reality as Zion...Or Israel became an independent country- But wait a second? Didn't Palestein own the land? Didn't they own there country?

 

This conflict led to a much larger conflict as the day Israel became a 'country' they were attacked by neighboring countrys in protest. Israel battled back and advanced with western technology supplied by America and GB, they easily won. Literally, Israel stole there land from Palestein, and as far as the western democracys saw it, Palestein was the terrorists and Israel was the great 'country.' Bullshit. Utter and comeplete BS. This is just ANOTHER reason for the Middle East to hate the Western World, it certantly wasnt the first and it certantly wont be the last.

 

My view is very strong, the facts are evident. After the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, France and Great Britain stole the Middle East and divided it into seperate mandates- Which they had no right to do. They then gave away land that they stole, to others- Which they had no right to do. The people who occupied the land which was stolen and there terrorist faction (Israel) then launched a campaign to wipe out Palestein.

 

Israel lost to Rome. Israel lost to Palestein. Israel lost in Spain, Israel lost in Germany. Israel lost everywhere, whose to say that they even DESERVE a homeland? This topic just enrages me, imagine it was something you loved. Like your pet, or your family. Imagine at one point someone else claimed that your family wasn't your family and imagine that your family then 'belonged' to that other person. You could plea with the govt. to help, but they side with the theif. Utterly and completly frustrating.

 

Now don't get me wrong, im not a bigot, im not a racist and im not intolerant to other peoples cultures. I joke about each of those things from time to time, but deep down I have no true prejiduces. However, theivery at this magnitude gets to me. Israel does not, will not, and will NEVER have the right to exist as long as they occupy stolen land.

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

This topic really doesn't surprise me when you make posts saying Hitler wasn't such a bad guy.

 

Good to know your an idiot and a racist piece of shit to boot.

[bob_barron 0]

Jason- seriously- just shut up.

 

I'm giving Slapnuts a chance to post the Myths/Facts so he can destroy you.

 

It's funny how when in the Angle thread RRR thorougly discredited you and your writing- you never responded

[KingPK 0]

Just call me Slapnuts for this post:

 

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/myths/index.html

 

MYTH

 

"Jews stole Arab land."

 

FACT

Despite the growth in their population, the Arabs continued to assert they were being displaced. The truth is that from the beginning of World War I, part of Palestine's land was owned by absentee landlords who lived in Cairo, Damascus and Beirut. About 80 percent of the Palestinian Arabs were debt-ridden peasants, semi-nomads and Bedouins.18

 

Jews actually went out of their way to avoid purchasing land in areas where Arabs might be displaced. They sought land that was largely uncultivated, swampy, cheap and, most important, without tenants. In 1920, Labor Zionist leader David Ben-Gurion expressed his concern about the Arab fellahin, whom he viewed as "the most important asset of the native population." Ben-Gurion said "under no circumstances must we touch land belonging to fellahs or worked by them." He advocated helping liberate them from their oppressors. "Only if a fellah leaves his place of settlement," Ben-Gurion added, "should we offer to buy his land, at an appropriate price."19

 

It was only after the Jews had bought all of the available uncultivated land that they began to purchase cultivated land. Many Arabs were willing to sell because of the migration to coastal towns and because they needed money to invest in the citrus industry.20

 

When John Hope Simpson arrived in Palestine in May 1930, he observed: "They [Jews] paid high prices for the land, and in addition they paid to certain of the occupants of those lands a considerable amount of money which they were not legally bound to pay."21

 

In 1931, Lewis French conducted a survey of landlessness and eventually offered new plots to any Arabs who had been "dispossessed." British officials received more than 3,000 applications, of which 80 percent were ruled invalid by the Government's legal adviser because the applicants were not landless Arabs. This left only about 600 landless Arabs, 100 of whom accepted the Government land offer.22

 

In April 1936, a new outbreak of Arab attacks on Jews was instigated by a Syrian guerrilla named Fawzi al­Qawukji, the commander of the Arab Liberation Army. By November, when the British finally sent a new commission headed by Lord Peel to investigate, 89 Jews had been killed and more than 300 wounded.23

 

The Peel Commission's report found that Arab complaints about Jewish land acquisition were baseless. It pointed out that "much of the land now carrying orange groves was sand dunes or swamp and uncultivated when it was purchased....there was at the time of the earlier sales little evidence that the owners possessed either the resources or training needed to develop the land."24 Moreover, the Commission found the shortage was "due less to the amount of land acquired by Jews than to the increase in the Arab population." The report concluded that the presence of Jews in Palestine, along with the work of the British Administration, had resulted in higher wages, an improved standard of living and ample employment opportunities.25

 

In his memoirs, Transjordan's King Abdullah wrote:

 

 

It is made quite clear to all, both by the map drawn up by the Simpson Commission and by another compiled by the Peel Commission, that the Arabs are as prodigal in selling their land as they are in useless wailing and weeping (emphasis in the original).26

 

Even at the height of the Arab revolt in 1938, the British High Commissioner to Palestine believed the Arab landowners were complaining about sales to Jews to drive up prices for lands they wished to sell. Many Arab landowners had been so terrorized by Arab rebels they decided to leave Palestine and sell their property to the Jews.27

 

The Jews were paying exorbitant prices to wealthy landowners for small tracts of arid land. "In 1944, Jews paid between $1,000 and $1,100 per acre in Palestine, mostly for arid or semiarid land; in the same year, rich black soil in Iowa was selling for about $110 per acre."28

 

By 1947, Jewish holdings in Palestine amounted to about 463,000 acres. Approximately 45,000 of these acres were acquired from the Mandatory Government; 30,000 were bought from various churches and 387,500 were purchased from Arabs. Analyses of land purchases from 1880 to 1948 show that 73 percent of Jewish plots were purchased from large landowners, not poor fellahin.29 Those who sold land included the mayors of Gaza, Jerusalem and Jaffa. As'ad el­Shuqeiri, a Muslim religious scholar and father of PLO chairman Ahmed Shuqeiri, took Jewish money for his land. Even King Abdullah leased land to the Jews. In fact, many leaders of the Arab nationalist movement, including members of the Muslim Supreme Council, sold land to Jews.30

 

MYTH

 

“Israel usurped all of Palestine in 1948.”

 

FACT

Nearly 80 percent of what was the historic land of Palestine and the Jewish National Home, as defined by the League of Nations, was severed by the British in 1921 and allocated to what became Transjordan. Jewish settlement there was barred. The UN partitioned the remaining 20-odd percent of Palestine into two states. With Jordan’s annexation of the West Bank in 1950, and Egypt's control of Gaza, Arabs controlled more than 80 percent of the territory of the Mandate, while the Jewish State held a bare 17.5 percent.6a

 

MYTH

 

“The Palestinian Arabs were never offered a state and therefore have been denied the right to self-determination.”

 

FACT

The Peel Commission in 1937 concluded the only logical solution to resolving the contradictory aspirations of the Jews and Arabs was to partition Palestine into separate Jewish and Arab states. The Arabs rejected the plan because it forced them to accept the creation of a Jewish state, and required some Palestinians to live under "Jewish domination." The Zionists opposed the Peel Plan's boundaries because they would have been confined to little more than a ghetto of 1,900 out of the 10,310 square miles remaining in Palestine. Nevertheless, the Zionists decided to negotiate with the British, while the Arabs refused to consider any compromises.

 

Again, in 1939, the British White Paper called for the establishment of an Arab state in Palestine within 10 years, and for limiting Jewish immigration to no more than 75,000 over the following five years. Afterward, no one would be allowed in without the consent of the Arab population. Though the Arabs had been granted a concession on Jewish immigration, and been offered independence — the goal of Arab nationalists — they repudiated the White Paper.

 

With partition, the Palestinians were given a state and the opportunity for self-determination. This too was rejected.

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

It's not worth it. He's either a gimmick poster and someone who's barely above a retard in intelligence.

 

Good chance on him being a neo-Nazi too since he seems to share a lot of Hitler's ideals.

[bob_barron 0]

Oh you spelled Palestine wrong too idiot.

 

I'll just post one and then let Slapnuts go at it-

 

MYTH

The Jews have no claim to the land they call Israel.”

 

FACT

 

A common misperception is that all the Jews were forced into the Diaspora by the Romans after the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem in the year 70 C.E. and then, 1,800 years later, suddenly returned to Palestine demanding their country back. In reality, the Jewish people have maintained ties to their historic homeland for more than 3,700 years.

 

The Jewish people base their claim to the Land of Israel on at least four premises: 1) the Jewish people settled and developed the land; 2) the international community granted political sovereignty in Palestine to the Jewish people; 3) the territory was captured in defensive wars and 4) God promised the land to the patriarch Abraham.

 

Even after the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem and the beginning of the exile, Jewish life in the Land of Israel continued and often flourished. Large communities were reestablished in Jerusalem and Tiberias by the ninth century. In the 11th century, Jewish communities grew in Rafah, Gaza, Ashkelon, Jaffa and Caesarea.

 

The Crusaders massacred many Jews during the 12th century, but the community rebounded in the next two centuries as large numbers of rabbis and Jewish pilgrims immigrated to Jerusalem and the Galilee. Prominent rabbis established communities in Safed, Jerusalem and elsewhere during the next 300 years. By the early 19th century — years before the birth of the modern Zionist movement — more than 10,000 Jews lived throughout what is today Israel.1 The 78 years of nation-building, beginning in 1870, culminated in the reestablishment of the Jewish State.

 

Israel's international "birth certificate" was validated by the promise of the Bible; uninterrupted Jewish settlement from the time of Joshua onward; the Balfour Declaration of 1917; the League of Nations Mandate, which incorporated the Balfour Declaration; the United Nations partition resolution of 1947; Israel's admission to the UN in 1949; the recognition of Israel by most other states; and, most of all, the society created by Israel's people in decades of thriving, dynamic national existence.

 

“Nobody does Israel any service by proclaiming its 'right to exist.'

 

Israel's right to exist, like that of the United States, Saudi Arabia and 152 other states, is axiomatic and unreserved. Israel's legitimacy is not suspended in midair awaiting acknowledgement....

 

There is certainly no other state, big or small, young or old, that would consider mere recognition of its 'right to exist' a favor, or a negotiable concession.”

 

— Abba Eban2

[KingPK 0]

Just remember that Arab countries attacked Israel and LOST, so they should actually hold MORE land than they have now.

[Guest Jason]

alright, fine..you want me to be off this site and you want to flame me all the time I try to post something? Fine, you got it!! Obviously no one wants me around anyway..

[bob_barron 0]

I responded to you with actual factual information.

 

Isn't that what you want?

[KingPK 0]

This is CE kid. When the sharks smell blood, they go right after you. Gotta be able to back up your arguement when people throw it back at you.

[Guest Jason]

^^ its not only here, it's all around the board like this

[Vyce 0]

Anyone want to place bets on how long before this anti-Semitic moron gets banned?

 

I'm HOPING it's soon.

[Guest Jason]

see...this is exactly what i'm talking about

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

Oh I imagine it's coming. He's hopefully only another ill informed thread or two away from getting the hammer.

 

Lord knows he likes to start threads on subjects he knows nothing about.

[KingPK 0]

Poorly worded, long, drawn out posts will sour people to you. You've brought a few good discussions to the WWE folder, but this and the Hitler thread wipes those out. And shying away from answering people who call you on things doesn't help, either.

 

Bob and I cited articles that back up the opposing viewpoint to yours. Ball's in your court, friend.

 

Here's a tip: When you want to bring up a topic, use the search feature to see if someone hasn't brought it up already. This Israel-Palestine issue has been dealt with and discussed umpteenth times already.

[muzz 0]

see...this is exactly what i'm talking about

People are allowed to not like you.

[Guest Jason]

People are allowed to not like you.

 

Yes, of course but some people like Salacious Crumb just do it in purpose it seems, I even bet he doesn't take time to read what I have to say.

 

This Israel-Palestine issue has been dealt with and discussed umpteenth times already.

 

I'm sorry. I didn't realize this topic has been brought up before. Could you possibly give me a link on the forums about this subject, I can't find it myself. I won't bump it.

[KingPK 0]

Take your pick.

[Justice 0]

Ahahaha...

 

The first thread is a Frank Zappa Mask one! Ah, the classics.

[Guest sek69]

Between this, the famous Hitler thread, your NJPW thread in the Puro folder, and the Angle thread, you've shown the amazing ability to be completely clueless on every big topic you try to tackle. I mean, more power to you for taking a shot at it I guess, but when people show how incorrect your posts are you either no-sell them or act like they are the ones incorrect.

 

As far as the topic goes, the whole thing's England's fault. They drew random lines across the former Ottoman Empire lands regardless of how the natural population flow went, and then the UN decided to make Palestine a refuge for Jewish folk after WWII (and Christ knows we all know how you feel about THAT topic...)

 

I'm of the opinon it takes two to tango. If both sides weren't doing things they shouldn't, the battle wouldn't have been still going 50 odd years later. IMO, both sides have launched attacks that they shouldn't have that haven't done a damn thing but ensure the war keeps going on.

 

I'm all for the 2 state solution. Make the West Bank and Gaza Strip into a Palestinian state and have the UN/NATO/whoever patrol the border for a while to make sure no one fucks around.

[Styles 0]

I feel so honored to be looked up to around here.

 

Look, I don't even want to bother. Between this thread, the Hitler one and several other's he's made in other folders to insight reactions I am convinced he is a useless troll poster who is overdue for a banning. I'll just sit back and wait for it to happen, and encourgae others to do the same.

 

EDIT: ^^^ posted before I even read all the replies, so it looks like we're all in agreement here.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

Now don't get me wrong, im not a bigot, im not a racist and im not intolerant to other peoples cultures.

No you just don't approve gays but think Hitler was just misunderstood.

 

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm missing Mike, Marney, et al. They used to bash the snot out of guys like this.

[Ted the Poster 0]

I like how he spelled it "Palestein" like it's a Jewish name. Great job there, shitdick.

[Guest BDC]

People are allowed to not like you.

 

Yes, of course but some people like Salacious Crumb just do it in purpose it seems, I even bet he doesn't take time to read what I have to say.

Well, you've just proven that you don't know what you're talking about.

 

Ever.

 

So if he IS skipping your posts, he isn't missing much. And, as kingpk said, both he and barron have factually refuted your ill-informed little rant and you haven't paid it a damn bit of attention, so I don't wanna hear anything about skipping posts.

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

alright, fine..you want me to be off this site and you want to flame me all the time I try to post something? Fine, you got it!! Obviously no one wants me around anyway..

We're still buds, right?...

[AndrewTS 0]

I like how he spelled it "Palestein" like it's a Jewish name. Great job there, shitdick.

That's giving me the idea for a B-movie where Israel and Palestine solve their problems by each creating their own man-made golems and pitting them against each other to the death.

 

Didn't Jason under his other name (INXS/#1 Dubya Disciple) get pwned about 20,000 times on this same topic already, though?

[Guest Cerebus]

You'd have a lot more credit if you spelled "Palestine" right you fucktard.

[Highland 0]

I thought it was mildly amusing the way he spelt it. I didn't bother reading the post though.

 

I hate to be whiny bitch, but could you reduce the size of your signature, Cerebus? It stretches the screen.

Edited January 3, 2005 by Highland

[Guest Loss]

Thank you all. If he comes back, I'm banning him for lying. We don't tolerate liars at TSM.

 

Oh, what the hell, I can't even type that without laughing.

[Special K 0]

I find it hard to believe he was a real poster, except he got all offended when people contended his inflammatory posts. I think he's probably just a kid. A stupid kid, at that.

 

His wrestling posts are just as bad.