NBA Roundtable Discussion

[Brett Favre 0]

The Knicks were destroyed before he came. It's like people really believe what the media says.

 

Turning what Layden had into Curry, Randolph, Lee, Balkman, Crawford, and even Marbury is a pretty good job.

 

 

They were just a bad team when Isiah got there. Now they are a mismanaged mess that is the laughingstock of the league. Shady characters. Bad contracts. Putrid performances. Sloppy management.

 

A couple of "name" players are good if you're running a fantasy team, but what they've put on the floor the past few years is a joke. And if this trial is any indication, the franchise is even worse off the court.

 

But really, why would sports writers like Isiah? He was a fabulous player in his day, but he's proven to be rather aloof in his other ventures.

 

They were just a bad team? They were an aging bad team with a horrible cap mess. The Knicks are like at around 88 or so in cap right now which is a great improvement from then. They'll be under the cap in like 2-3 years, which really doesn't matter anyway since no one gets under the cap except for like 1-2 teams. Who's the shady character? Randolph? You can blame his entourage which isn't making it to NY. Who else? Marbury? Who's donating like hell all over the country? It's funny when you make empty statements like that.

 

They'll make it to the playoffs this year because they would've last year if everyone didn't get hurt. Replacing Frye with Randolph helps too.

 

[Ripper 0]

The Knicks under Layden had worse contracts, worse performances and sloppier management. Not even close to being the same as now.

 

The Knicks were in the playoff race last year and have made the playoffs twice under Isaiahs reign. They have cut payroll significantly since Layden. I don't see how you can call that team last year a joke until the injuries of Crawford, Marbury, Lee, Richardson and....I am missing someone else.... pretty much ended their year.

 

Plus, what other ventures has he been bad at? If you are talking about the CBA thing, what Isaiah did was the only logical move for the league, which was on its way to death anyway. He pretty much tried to make it the official minor league for the NBA, but Stern had started to invest in the NBDL and thus the CBA was killed dead. The only way it was going to sustain life is if it because the official minor league. It didn't. It died. The end.

[Brett Favre 0]

If you want someone who sucks, look at Larry Bird. Took a 60 win team down the drain.

[Ripper 0]

Or Kevin Mchale.

 

Who sucks so bad he managed to get Danny Ainge off the suck list with his sucking.

 

And of course....Billy Knight.

[alfdogg 0]

Wow, I didn't realize that one year out of the playoffs means you're now worse than Isiah Thomas. Not to mention it's mostly Ron Artest's fault we're in the mess we're in right now.

[Failed Bridge 0]

I'd say Stephen Jackson should shoulder some blame on that too.

[alfdogg 0]

For the record, I think Isiah's certainly exceeded expectations in his current role as GM/coach so far. He certainly has had his share of screw-ups, but he's done great as far as drafting players. You can't really look at his tenure and say he's made a bad choice in the draft, I don't think. He probably could have waited on Balkman, but he wasn't on anyone else's draft board and Isiah got him and he's been a solid contributor.

 

Overall, I actually think he's been coming along pretty good, but come on, that was kind of a silly thing to say about Bird. You can't sit there and tell me that the Pacers wouldn't still be an elite team had the stuff with Artest never happened. And I should also point out that the Pacers became a 60-win team in the first place due in large part to Bird replacing Isiah as coach with Rick Carlisle.

Edited September 22, 2007 by alfdogg

[Brett Favre 0]

Maybe maybe not, but Isiah had a hand in bringing in those players. When Bird took over personnel decisions, he's made the Artest for Stojakovic trade, got lucky with Granger and drafted Sean Williams, and I think James White. Well, i'm not sure of other decent draft picks he's made. He also traded Jackson and Harrington along with spare parts for Murphy and Dunleavy. The team has gotten worse.

 

The reason I mentioned Bird was because the media never gets on him, and gets on Isiah because he echoed Rodman's statements on Bird. At least that's part of the reason.

[Darthtiki 0]

Goodbye to Sactown's Finest

[Ripper 0]

Damn. I feel old.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3036829

 

 

...

 

Sigh.

 

Personally I hope they give him a big fuck you and keep him.

[alfdogg 0]

Must be tough playing for a perennial contender with Steve Nash as a teammate.

[Ripper 0]

And being the highest paid player. And getting the most minutes. And taking the second most shots on the team.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

Not a surprise. Remember that article (SI maybe?) last year where the reporter asked him if it's better to be the star of a bad team or the second option on a contender and he said he didn't know.

[Ripper 0]

Oh, no its not a suprise. We have had the yearly "I am not appreciated for what I do" rant from marion for 3-4 years now.

 

I am not exactly sure how else you show appreciation if you are the Suns.

 

 

[Ripper 0]

Oh and his wanting to play in LA. Fuck him.

 

The Suns, if they do trade him, should give him up for:

 

1: David Lee and anything else they want from the Knicks. Lee would replace the Rebounding, give them a shit load of points around the rim with Nash feeding him. We would lose defense in this trade though.

 

2: Josh Smith and Sheldon Williams. Yes, I said both. ATlanta could have their pick back and some other Suns player that no one cares about. Take Alando Tucker. Josh gives them the KINDA rebounding, more shotblocking, pretty much the same on steals, not so much on the a ball defensively. He is just as adept to hitting wide open 3's and gives them a very dangerous weapon on the break or in half court with Nash. Sheldon gives them the Rebounding and low post D and its not like he was going to get any tick in Atlanta anyway.

 

3: Andri Kirelinko and Jason Collins. Probably the most realistic trade here, Gives them big for the front line and AK goes back to the PF position that he excels at. Plus that puts him, Nash, and Grant Hill on the floor at the same time and that is alot of ball handling. Defensively is a monster off the ball and at ball denial though not the on the ball defender that Marion is.

 

4: Lamar Odom AND Brian Cook AND draft picks. No goddamn way you trade the perfect compliment to Kobe in the same division without getting alot out of it. Lamar would be a good player to put at C/PF, can pass, has heart and can board but I don't know how effective he can be without the ball in his hand. Brian Cook can shoot...and...well....shoot.

 

5: Chicago for Tyrus Thomas, THABO~! and someone to make the money work. Not happening because the money would never work, but stil.

 

6: Detroit for Rasheed Wallace and I could give a shit whatelse. Give me Rasheed and you will see a Championship. Yeah, he would shoot 10 billion 3's, but he can defend the block and can rebound and is a underrated passer.

 

7: Charlotte for Gerald Wallace, and a big. Because Gerald Wallace rules.

i am sure there are more, but I have to think about it.

[Cartman 0]

He's a tool for saying this, no doubt.

 

BUT

 

He's probably pissed that he's always brought up in trade talks like he's expendable or something.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

He's a tool for saying this, no doubt.

 

BUT

 

He's probably pissed that he's always brought up in trade talks like he's expendable or something.

 

 

It's not like Steve Kerr is running around saying that they'd love to trade Marion. Most of the time these rumors are started by bored sportswriters. You can't have such a thin skin if you're going to be a professional athlete.

 

Everyone knows that the Suns need to cut payroll and Marion is making the most money. Of course he'll surface in trade talks. Doesn't mean the Suns don't appreciate him.

[Ripper 0]

They tried to trade him for Kevin Fucking Garnett. Thats like getting pissed because you name came up in a Lebron James trade offer.

 

If they tried to trade him for Jerome James, then get pissed. Getting traded for a first ballot Hall of Famer is not a insult. And that is pretty much the only Marion trade rumour that the suns actually have confirmed. Everything else, they are constantly getting on television saying that any Marion trade rumour is not true and that he is staying. Mike D'Antoni gave at least 3 of those press conferences last year and said "Bottomline, he isn't going anywhere."

 

This is just him being whiney. If only he wasn't so good and didn't do so much for the team.

 

Although at the same time, Joe Johnson was the teams best perimeter defender and defended positions 1-3 reguarly and sometimes 4, was the backup point guard, and the teams best shooter and they moved on without him.

 

[Cartman 0]

I'm not saying he's justified i'm just suggesting that could be a possibility. If I am playing for the Phoenix Suns right now and I am rumored to be traded to the Wolves I would be pissed too. It doesn't have anything to do with who I am rumored to be traded for, but more the team I am being traded to. I'm willing to be alot of players would much rather be in Phoenix than Minny for several reasons.

[Guest]

About Marion...first this.

 

http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=277553

 

Shawn Marion, L.A. Laker? If he has his way, that will happen.

 

According to a league source, the Lakers and Suns have been in discussions about a deal -- a blockbuster deal -- that would send the four-time All-Star to Los Angeles to play alongside Kobe Bryant. The Suns would get forward Lamar Odom and perhaps some salary-cap filler in return. The main obstacle appears to be Lakers owner Jerry Buss, who needs to OK the deal. Asked to handicap the likelihood of the deal going through, the source said, "50-50."

 

 

Upon hearing this, I caught up with Marion this afternoon by phone. He confirmed that he spoke with Bryant over the weekend, but added, "I've been friends with Kobe for a while, so we talk here and there, anyway."

 

Still, Marion was enthusiastic about the potential trade. "Why wouldn't I be?" he said. "You have a great organization, great ownership there with the Lakers. I don't see no problems with playing there."

 

This, it appears, would be a good fit for everyone. It has been a rocky summer for Marion and the Suns, who drafted him out of UNLV in 1999 but have been unwilling to give him a contract extension. Marion is the highest-paid player on the team, and he can opt out of the final year of his deal and become a free agent next summer.

 

One sticking point with the Suns is that Marion was told that if he does opt out, he will not be re-signed. Another goes back to before the draft, when the Suns had a deal in place to send Marion to the Celtics -- Boston had agreed to extend his contract if the trade went through. "I didn't like that," Marion said. "It was like they were trying to force my hand by taking the Boston deal. I have been with this team my whole career. I was like, 'Wow.' "

 

I asked if the team's refusal to give him an extension played into his unhappiness with the team. "It was part of it," Marion said. "It's not like that was the last straw or anything. It was just part of everything that has gone on. People have made assumptions about me, but I don't think all those people know everything that has gone on."

 

For the most part, though, Marion declined to talk about his unhappiness with the organization. "There's been things that have been said in the media, but I don't want to get into all that," he said. "That's not going to accomplish anything. Most people don't know what goes on behind closed doors. The way I look at it is, I love Phoenix, I love the fans. I love my teammates. Don't let anybody tell you that I don't. Some of the stuff that has happened is messed up. But pointing fingers and all that, I am bigger than that."

 

As for the potential Lakers-Suns trade, Odom would fit well in Phoenix's up-tempo offense. He is an excellent rebounder who can run the floor and handle the ball, like a point-forward. With the addition of small forward Grant Hill, the Suns clearly are looking to add players with ballhandling skill to take pressure off point guard Steve Nash, especially in the postseason.

 

Marion is not a classic big-man fit for Phil Jackson's triangle offense, which might be the source of the Lakers' hesitation. But, in some ways, he offers Jackson more than Odom, who has played alongside Bryant for three seasons. Both Odom and Bryant have put up nice numbers in those years, but the two just don't seem to mesh. Odom operates best running the floor and with the ball in his hands. But when you play for the Lakers, the ball is going to be in Bryant's hands. Odom has been professional about that, but this is a guy who has averaged 4.6 assists per game in his career. He belongs in a ball-sharing system.

 

Marion is different. He can excel without having plays called for him, and he gets the bulk of his points off turnovers and offensive rebounds -- in other words, he can be productive even if Bryant dominates the ball. He also can make 3-pointers and is a strong finisher. But the biggest difference will be Marion's defense. He's among the best defenders in the league, and he and Bryant should give the Lakers a fearsome pair of defensive wings. As important as the triangle is to Jackson, the most frustrating part of the coach's return to the Lakers in the last two years has been the team's shoddy defense.

 

Some will point to the Phoenix run-and-gun system when it comes to Marion's gaudy numbers (18.8 points and 10.0 rebounds in his career). But he had some of his best years when the Suns were a halfcourt team and Stephon Marbury was the point guard. And there also is this to consider: Marion is among the league's most durable players, missing just 15 games in those eight seasons. Odom is coming off shoulder surgery and missed four weeks with a sprained MCL last season.

 

"I think I would fit right in," Marion said. "People talk about the triangle offense all the time, like it is impossible. But it's an offense. Wherever you play, you have to learn the offense. It's not that complicated. You pass, you cut, you slash. Offense is offense. And I would love to play with Kobe."

 

Still, a change would be tough for Marion. "I wanted to retire a Phoenix Sun," he said. "That would be nice. I think everyone would like to play their whole career for the team that drafted them. But sometimes it comes to the point where you just have to take that step and move on. It's like a bad marriage. It doesn't matter who's right or wrong, both people should just move on."

 

Of course, there's just one catch: The Lakers might turn down the deal. That would mean that when training camp opens next Monday, Marion would still be with the Suns. Would he show up? "I am a professional," he says. "I will be where I am supposed to be."

 

then this

 

http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=277969

 

There's still no official word on the Shawn Marion-for-Lamar Odom swap detailed on SportingNews.com Tuesday. Marion told me he wants the deal to go down, and he sounded genuinely excited about the possibility of changing scenery. Marion also said he spoke with Kobe Bryant over the weekend and was left with the impression that Bryant supported the trade.

 

 

The Lakers, of course, need to appease Bryant. Bryant's angry tirade in May about the Lakers' inability to surround him with more talent became a major story of the offseason. The Lakers haven't done much to improve their roster this summer, and while it could be argued that swapping Marion for Odom wouldn't lead to significant improvement, it would at least be a change. And the Lakers need a change. If the Lakers are convinced Bryant wants this trade to happen, they'd be foolish not to pursue it.

 

So what's the holdup? The deal was presented last week, giving the Lakers and Suns plenty of time to evaluate it.

 

As I said, there has been no official word. But a source close to the Suns says the Lakers are grappling with the same misgiving Phoenix has expressed: They're wary of giving Marion an extension, which could cost in the area of $65 million over three years. If L.A. traded for Marion without extending his contract, Marion could opt out next summer and hit the free-agent market. The Lakers still could re-sign him then, but the team might not want to run the risk of giving up Odom, its second most important asset, only to watch Marion leave after one season.

 

Because of that concern, the deal might never materialize. Another source said Tuesday that the deal was a 50-50 possibility. But, as one general manager says, "The Lakers would be making themselves a target by coming to camp without doing anything. That has been Kobe's complaint all along -- that the team doesn't take chances, like with the [Jason] Kidd-for-[Andrew] Bynum thing. This is a chance to show Kobe they'll take some chances and spend some money."

 

There's also this irony: Marion has taken so much flak this summer for causing chemistry problems, you'd think the Suns would be desperate to trade him. The reality is quite the opposite. "Shawn might complain from time to time, but he is not disruptive," the source close to the Suns says. "[The Suns] don't think he is a guy who would intentionally come in and be destructive to the team. He is too much of a professional to do that. They know that, so they know they don't have to go out and give him away."

 

Perhaps if Marion were more of a pain, Phoenix frantically would be trying to trade him. But that's not the case. Chemistry issues between Marion and power forward Amare Stoudemire have been overblown. The reason the Suns are entertaining trade offers has nothing to do with Marion's performance on the court or in the locker room. The reason is financial.

 

In fact, Marion acknowledged Tuesday that he would show up in Phoenix next Monday ready to play if he is not traded. He didn't sound excited about that prospect, but he's not one to destroy team chemistry. The last thing he said to me when we spoke was this: "I am a professional. I will be where I am supposed to be."

 

If this happens, I'd love it. But I'm not going to lose sleep thinking about it because of the way the Lakers front office is ran. The writer says the chance of this happening is 50-50. I say it's about 90-10, and not in favor of Marion being moved, that is. We could really use his rebounding and shooting.

[Fökai 0]

Odom is just a good contract to get off of the books. The short-term solution to appease Kobe is what they should be looking for; there's going to be a lot of money and superstar free agents floating around next summer to even worry about the long-term return for Odom.

 

And hell, try to hold up the Suns for a draft pick. It's not like they haven't been giving them away for the last three years.

[bobobrazil1984 0]

6: Detroit for Rasheed Wallace and I could give a shit whatelse. Give me Rasheed and you will see a Championship. Yeah, he would shoot 10 billion 3's, but he can defend the block and can rebound and is a underrated passer.

 

For the record, there were some prelim talks between Phoenix and Detroit about this, according to Dumars on some radio show, but Phoenix asked for 2 starters (Sheed, and I believe Tay Prince), which Dumars balked at.

[Ripper 0]

And thats why I don't undestand why Marion would be pissed. Dumars called and they asked for a RIDICULOUS deal. Their asking price for him was HUGE. How can he feel not respected?

 

I personally don't think they are trading him anywhere.

 

 

[bobobrazil1984 0]

my impression was that all the 'underappreciated' stuff always comes down to the Suns being thought of as Steve Nash's team, and Nash winning/nominated for MVP awards. He basically wants to be the guy in the Top 3 or Top 5 of MVP balloting when the Suns have a great record.

[Steviekick 0]

The more I think about it, the Marion/Kirilenko situations are very similar, so trading them for each other wouldn't work out. They'd both at best be the third options if they switched teams.

[Rendclaw 0]

The Suns *are* Steve Nash's team.

 

And this is also showing how inept the Lakers' front office really is. Everything that is to be done in the offseason should be moving towards one goal: Keeping Kobe. They didn't draft any real help for him, and now it seems to be that they are balking at trading for a player that just might be a great compliment to Kobe. Kupchak should have pulled the trigger on this deal yesterday, since *something* needs to be shown to Kobe that they are trying to surround him with good players.

 

And Marion, this guy is weird. I don't know why he would leave Phoenix at all, considering everything that is going for him there... it seems to me that he wants to feel appreciated rather than win games and constantly be in the hunt for a title.

[dh86 0]

And thats why I don't undestand why Marion would be pissed. Dumars called and they asked for a RIDICULOUS deal. Their asking price for him was HUGE. How can he feel not respected?

 

I personally don't think they are trading him anywhere.

 

I recall the Suns asking for Rasheed,Rip and both 1st rounders...I think that it was the Suns not wanting to make the Pistons any better that made them ask for so much

[TheOriginalOrangeGoblin 0]

The more I think about it, the Marion/Kirilenko situations are very similar, so trading them for each other wouldn't work out. They'd both at best be the third options if they switched teams.

I disgaree wholeheartedly. Phoenix is perfect for Kirilenko. He doesn't care about being the top guy or a big scorer but more about the way he is used on the court. He wants a coach who'll use him to his strengths which is exactly what D'Antoni would do. The Phoenix system is perfect for him and, with him, they make up for, basically, all of the intantgibles they lose with Marion. Odom is a good player but defensively he is a big step down which, with the loss of Thomas, makes Phoenix a much worse defensive team and, once again, most likely unable to compete with San Antonio.

 

Kirilenko for Marion is by far the best, PLAUSIBLE (the Rasheed deal isn't happening), scenario for the Suns title chances.

[Maztinho 0]

The more I think about it, the Marion/Kirilenko situations are very similar, so trading them for each other wouldn't work out. They'd both at best be the third options if they switched teams.

I disgaree wholeheartedly. Phoenix is perfect for Kirilenko. He doesn't care about being the top guy or a big scorer but more about the way he is used on the court. He wants a coach who'll use him to his strengths which is exactly what D'Antoni would do. The Phoenix system is perfect for him and, with him, they make up for, basically, all of the intantgibles they lose with Marion. Odom is a good player but defensively he is a big step down which, with the loss of Thomas, makes Phoenix a much worse defensive team and, once again, most likely unable to compete with San Antonio.

 

Kirilenko for Marion is by far the best, PLAUSIBLE (the Rasheed deal isn't happening), scenario for the Suns title chances.

 

Wrong, AK wants to be the focus of the teams offense. He only started getting upset with Sloan because the offense wasn't being run through him but it was back to old school Jazz play with PG/PF being the main course of the offense. Kirilenko was happy the few years after Stockton and Malone left because he was the "go to guy." Constantly in interviews with the local media he says that plays aren't being called specifically for him, that's what he wants.

 

Phoenix's system might work better for him, but he wants to be the focus and Steve Nash and Amare will over-shadow him there as well. It's a lateral move in what he is saying he wants.

[Ripper 0]

In Phoenix he would get more shots (once again, Marion got more shots than Nash and Amare last year. And he missed games while Amare didn't) would score more points, and his playmaking skills would work better in the Phoenix offense.

 

Marion on the other hand would disa-freakin-pear in Utah.