Greatest WWF Matches of the 90's Poll/Tourney

[Wyld Cannon 0]

Why are you making this compilation anyway? All the same matches that have been on this list for 7 years are going to win, and haven't you seen them all already?

 

Not trying to discourage you, I'm just wondering what the point is.

 

And to further play devil's advocate, I would say there wasn't one WWF match in the 90's that could make a top ten worldwide matches of the 90's list. But maybe you're just not into puro or WCW even.

[World's Worst Man 0]

 

More like top 30.

 

Sorry, I couldn't resist

[J.T. 0]

WCW worldwide and Saturday Night was good, but your dreaming if you think the best match of the 90's in the WWF wouldnt make a top 10 WCW list from worldwide.

[Wyld Cannon 0]

I meant the Earth. Worldwide.

[Black Lushus 0]

the only match that could probably stake a legitimate claim to a world wide top matches list would be Austin/Hart from WM13...arguably the best WWE/F match ever.

 

However, I've always been a WWE guy so I could probably argue for more matches, but at LEAST that match makes it.

[Wyld Cannon 0]

I would agree that it is the best WWF/E match ever, but I made this list very quickly:

 

Mitsuharu Misawa/Kenta Kobashi vs. Toshiaki Kawada/Akira Taue 6/9/95

Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Toshiaki Kawada (6/3/94)

Stan Hansen vs. Kenta Kobashi 93

Rey Misterio Jr. vs. Eddy Guerrero - Halloween Havoc ’97

Toshiaki Kawada/Akira Taue vs. Mitsuharu Misawa/Jun Akiyama RWTL 96 Finals

Doug Furnas/Dan Kroffat vs. Kenta Kobashi/Tsuyoshi Kikuchi -92

Great Sasuke vs. Wild Pegasus - Super J Cup 94

Ultimo Dragon vs. Shinjiro Ohtani - J-Crown Tourney

Chris Benoit vs. Bret Hart – Owen Match

Chris Benoit vs. Kevin Sullivan – GAB

Stan Hansen vs. Toshiaki Kawada 93

Steve Williams vs. Toshiaki Kawada Carnival 94

 

I put 12 because I could possibly see the bottom 3 coming off. Granted, if you don't like the AJPW style this list won't mean shit to you. But I would say that none of these matches could be moved off the list by Austin/Hart. And I left out a shitload from NJPW and WCW.

[pochorenella 0]

oh man, waaaay too much goofing around at the beginning of the match and the non-finish kinda kills it for me. I mean, it was fun and all, the best spot being HBK trying to get into the door of the IYH stage set to escape UT, but really, the match was nothing more than setup for HIAC.

That spot always brings a smile to my face. Just terrific acting on HBK's part. The match was total chaos, which I believe only adds to the greatness, non-finish and all.

 

If I'm not mistaken, Taka and Sasuke trumped their Stampede match with one either on Raw or at the next PPV.

It was on the next night's RAW. I think both matches are fairly even, but Sasuke does bust out that Space Flying Tiger Drop thingie, which I believe was only previously done once by Hakushi on WWF TV, correct me if I'm wrong.

 

As for my nominees (is 10 the limit?), they're the usual suspects, plus a couple that haven't been mentioned:

 

HBK vs Undertaker HIAC, Bad Blodd97

HBK vs Razor, WMX

Bret vs Owen, WMX

Austin vs Bret, WM13

Austin vs Bret, SSeries96

HBK vs Mankind, Mind Games

Savage vs Warrior, WMVII

Bret vs Bulldog, SSlam92

HBK/Austin vs Owen/Bulldog, RAW97

Bret vs HBK Ironman, WMXII

[theintensifier 0]

I would agree that it is the best WWF/E match ever, but I made this list very quickly:

 

Mitsuharu Misawa/Kenta Kobashi vs. Toshiaki Kawada/Akira Taue 6/9/95

Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Toshiaki Kawada (6/3/94)

Stan Hansen vs. Kenta Kobashi 93

Rey Misterio Jr. vs. Eddy Guerrero - Halloween Havoc ’97

Toshiaki Kawada/Akira Taue vs. Mitsuharu Misawa/Jun Akiyama RWTL 96 Finals

Doug Furnas/Dan Kroffat vs. Kenta Kobashi/Tsuyoshi Kikuchi -92

Great Sasuke vs. Wild Pegasus - Super J Cup 94

Ultimo Dragon vs. Shinjiro Ohtani - J-Crown Tourney

Chris Benoit vs. Bret Hart – Owen Match

Chris Benoit vs. Kevin Sullivan – GAB

Stan Hansen vs. Toshiaki Kawada 93

Steve Williams vs. Toshiaki Kawada Carnival 94

 

I put 12 because I could possibly see the bottom 3 coming off. Granted, if you don't like the AJPW style this list won't mean shit to you. But I would say that none of these matches could be moved off the list by Austin/Hart. And I left out a shitload from NJPW and WCW.

Austin/Hart over those two any day.

 

Benoit / Hart was a good match, but no where near Austin / Hart levels.

 

I've seen Sullivan / Benoit once or twice. It's very forgetable.

[AboveAverage484 0]

Why are you making this compilation anyway? All the same matches that have been on this list for 7 years are going to win, and haven't you seen them all already?

 

Not trying to discourage you, I'm just wondering what the point is.

 

And to further play devil's advocate, I would say there wasn't one WWF match in the 90's that could make a top ten worldwide matches of the 90's list. But maybe you're just not into puro or WCW even.

 

I get in moods to watch certain styles. I don't even compare WWF to Japan or even AJPW to NJPW because the styles are so different from promotion to promotion. Besides, WWF material is the most readily available to make a comp with.

[DMann2003 0]

Royal Rumble 92

Undertaker vs Michaels Hell in a Cell

HBK vs Jarrett IYH 2

Steiners vs Harts

HBK vs Mankind (Mind Games)

Hart vs Perfect KOTR 93

Austin vs Hart WM 13

10 Man Tag Canadian Stampede

Savage vs Warrior WM 7

Hart vs Hart SummerSlam 94

[Special K 0]

Bret/Owen WMX

 

Second Razor/HBK ladder match

 

Mankind/HBK Mindgames

 

That's about it. since I think they're tops od the matches I've seen. Taker/Hbk HiaC. and Bret/Austin would be the next tier, but I think these are just about the best.

[humanoid92 0]

My nominees:

 

Savage/Warrior (WM 7)

Bret/Piper (WM 8)

Flair/Savage (WM 8)

Bret/Bulldog (Summerslam 92)

Bret/Perfect (93 King of the Ring)

Bret/Owen (WM 10)

Bret/Owen (Summerslam 94)

Shawn/Jarrett (In Your House, July 95)

Bret/Shawn (WM 12)

Bret/Austin (Survivor Series 96)

[CanadianChris 0]

Only ten? That's rough.

 

Savage/Warrior (WMVII)

1992 Royal Rumble

Savage/Flair (WMVIII)

Bret/Bulldog (Summerslam 92)

Bret/Perfect (KOTR 93)

Bret/Owen (WMX)

Bret/Austin (SurSer 96)

Bret/Austin (WMXIII)

Hart Foundation/Austin, LOD, Goldust, Shamrock (Canadian Stampede)

HBK/Undertaker (Badd Blood 97)

 

Now, if it were a top 25, I'd throw these in as well:

 

Hart Foundation/Rockers (SNME, 1990)

Bret/Perfect (Summerslam 91)

Bret/Piper (WMVIII)

Savage/Warrior (Summerslam 92)

Bret/Owen (Summerslam 94)

HBK/Jarrett (IYH2, 1994)

HBK/Razor Ramon (Summerslam 95)

HBK/Mankind (Mind Games 96)

Owen/Bulldog (Euro final)

Owen & Bulldog/HBK & Austin (Raw, 1997)

Bret, Owen & Bulldog/Undertaker, Mankind & Austin (Raw, 1997 - flag match)

Austin/Dude Love (Over The Edge 98)

HHH/Rock (Summerslam 98)

Rock/Mankind (Royal Rumble 99)

Edge & Christian/Hardys (No Mercy 99)

[RonL21 0]

I would agree that it is the best WWF/E match ever, but I made this list very quickly:

 

Mitsuharu Misawa/Kenta Kobashi vs. Toshiaki Kawada/Akira Taue 6/9/95

Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Toshiaki Kawada (6/3/94)

Stan Hansen vs. Kenta Kobashi 93

Rey Misterio Jr. vs. Eddy Guerrero - Halloween Havoc ’97

Toshiaki Kawada/Akira Taue vs. Mitsuharu Misawa/Jun Akiyama RWTL 96 Finals

Doug Furnas/Dan Kroffat vs. Kenta Kobashi/Tsuyoshi Kikuchi -92

Great Sasuke vs. Wild Pegasus - Super J Cup 94

Ultimo Dragon vs. Shinjiro Ohtani - J-Crown Tourney

Chris Benoit vs. Bret Hart – Owen Match

Chris Benoit vs. Kevin Sullivan – GAB

Stan Hansen vs. Toshiaki Kawada 93

Steve Williams vs. Toshiaki Kawada Carnival 94

 

I put 12 because I could possibly see the bottom 3 coming off. Granted, if you don't like the AJPW style this list won't mean shit to you. But I would say that none of these matches could be moved off the list by Austin/Hart. And I left out a shitload from NJPW and WCW.

Speaking of WCW...DDP/Goldberg at Halloween Havoc 98 is one of my favorites of all time..At least 4 stars....probably the only WCW match on my list

[The Mountie 0]

My ten nominations

 

Warrior vs Savage (WrestleMania VII)

Bret vs Perfect (SummerSlam 91)

1992 Royal Rumble Match (Royal Rumble 92)

Bret vs Bulldog (SummerSlam 92)

Bret vs Austin (WrestleMania 13)

Owen vs Bulldog (European Championship Tournament Final Raw)

Hart Foundation vs Austin, Shamrock, Goldust and LOD (In Your House: Canadian Stampede)

Michaels vs Undertaker (In Your House: Badd Blood)

Austin vs Dude (In Your House: Over The Edge)

Undertaker vs Mankind (King of the Ring 1998)

[CanadianChris 0]

Nobody mentioned Undertaker vs Mankind at King of the Ring in HIAC?

Someone has now, but it just wasn't a good match.

[Guest Teq]

Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart - Wrestlemania 10

Bret Hart vs. Steve Austin - Wrestlemania 13

Shawn Michaels vs. Undertaker - IYH 18 HIAC

Shawn Michaels vs. Mankind - IYH 10: Mind Games

Bret Hart vs. British Bulldog - IYH 5

Bret Hart vs. Steve Austin - Survivor Series 1996

Bret Hart vs. Mr Perfect - King of the Ring 1993

Shawn Michaels vs. Marty Jannetty - Raw 19/7/93

Bret Hart & Owen Hart vs. The Steiners - 1/94 - Wrestlefest '94 VHS

Bret Hart vs. Shawn Michaels - Wrestlemania 12

[CanadianGuitarist 0]

Nobody mentioned Undertaker vs Mankind at King of the Ring in HIAC?

Someone has now, but it just wasn't a good match.

 

I agree with this. There's three or four big spots, but they don't hold up for match re-watching to well in the long run....how many times have you seen Mankind thrown off the cage in clips or whatever?

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

It depends on your criteria. It wouldn't qualify based purely on match quality, but if you're considering notoriety or importance, it could make the list.

[RonL21 0]

It depends on your criteria. It wouldn't qualify based purely on match quality, but if you're considering notoriety or importance, it could make the list.

Well Shit..Throw Virgil/Ted DiBiase from SummerSlam 91 in there...One of my faves as a 6 yr old

[Just John 0]

UT vs. Mankind is one of the most important matches of the 90's, but it wasn't good at all. The only reason it still holds up for shock value is JR's selling, and the tooth in the nose. Beyond that, it's an ugly mess of a match. Granted, there are perfectly valid reasons for it sucking that I won't hold against either participant, but still.

[humanoid92 0]

I just realized I'm the only one that excluded Austin/Hart at Wrestlemania 13 from my list. Don't get me wrong- I like that match but it just doesn't crack my top ten. I know it ranks #1 with a lot of people, and I wouldn't criticize that. I fully understand the historical significance, the double turn, how much it helped Austin, how it was the unofficial birth of the Attitude era, the fact that it stood out on a craptacular card, that it was a defining moment in the Bret/Austin feud, Bret's truly last epic match, etc. I'm just wondering if I'm literally the only one who wouldn't put it in their top ten.

 

Maybe some of this comes from the fact that I don't seem to like 1997 quite as much as other people around here. I hate WM 13 as an event; it was the first Wrestlemania (and maybe the only Wrestlemania) that didn't feel like a Wrestlemania at all. You can say all you want about WM 11 and 12, but they still felt like major events. WM 13 might as well have been an In Your House. '97 is held in very high regard around these parts, and I agree that a lot of great moments came from that time. But it was also the beginning of the end for Bret, the start of his whiny character, and the descent into the Attitude era. I know that time period was very successful, but I always hated what happened to the in-ring product after Bret left and Michaels got hurt. Maybe it's just the nostalgia in me because it's when I first seriously got into wrestling, but I prefer the '92-'94ish era instead. It just seems like most people consider the Bret/Austin feud and the re-uniting of the Hart Foundation to be the apex of Bret's career, when to me it'll always be the Hart family saga, mainly the Owen feud. If I was ranking Bret's years in singles competition in terms of my favorite, I'd go with 94, 92, 93, 97, 96, 95, 91. So to me, 97 wasn't his peak; it was somewhere in the middle.

 

By the way, this is coming from the biggest Bret mark around. I just prefer the types of matches he had against guys like Owen, Bulldog, and Perfect to the brawling style of match he had with Austin. I feel parts of the WM 13 match didn't age very well with time. Like the whole brawling into the crowd part. If ever a feud warranted such intensity it's certainly this one, but every time I watch it I just can't shake the image of the lazy brawling into the crowd and down the aisle that followed in every WWF main event from 1998 and 1999, not to mention all the hardcore matches. That's no fault of Bret or Austin; it just doesn't do much for me at this point. Shamrock as the ref always felt out of place to me too. I didn't like that he was there- he really had no reason to be and it felt like a completely unnecessary and extraneous element.

 

I guess I'm also not really a fan of "I Quit" matches to begin with. The finish for this match was perfect for the storyline and I wouldn't change it at all, but to me Austin passing out will never be as dramatic as a legitimate submission or a quick three-count. I'd never call that finish a copout because within the context of the match and storyline it made perfect sense, but as far as making for an exciting finish on its own, I felt like it was a little anti-climactic. There weren't really many good false finishes leading up to it either, which is a direct product of that type of match. It's much harder to work false finishes into a submission match; no matter what you do it'll never be as exciting as a Savage/Steamboat type exchange of near falls. I guess I prefer endings like the pinning combinations that occured in Bret's matches with Owen and Bulldog, and the Wrestlemania VIII/Survivor Series '96 finish. As far as the famous Bret singles matches go, (which is to say not counting any original Hart Foundation stuff, or the ten man tag at Canadian Stampede, or television matches against the likes of Flair or the Kid, or tag matches like Bret & Owen vs. The Steiners or Quebecers, etc.) I prefer both Perfect matches, both Bulldog matches, both Owen matches, the Piper match, the Michaels Iron Man, and the Survivor Series match with Austin. Then I'd go with WM 13. Which means that Bret/Austin at WM 13 just barely cracks my top ten Bret matches of the '90s.

 

Again, I'm really not trying to bash the match even though it's probably coming off that way. I'm just trying to provide a different perspective to it. When it comes down to it, I think it's a good match with a great storyline, whereas, in my opinion, the other Bret matches I listed were simply great matches, with good to great storylines. The WM 13 match is very good. It's just not my favorite. I'm not going to bash anyone that has it as their #1. I'm just wondering if there's anyone else that feels the same as I do or can at least understand where I'm coming from.

[Guest Teq]

I respect your opinion, but in all honesty I can't really see where your coming from because I disagree with the majority of your thoughts on the Submission match. Firstly Brets peak was the majority of his career, he was great for many years straight, even in the 80's he was having the best singles matches of the year more often than not, certainly when talking non-PPV. He never went out of his peak, even in 1999 he was still one of the best in the world. I disagree with your opinion of '97 being the beginning of the end for Bret, just take a look at Mayhem '99, 2 years on, it was just the start of another beginning. His last epic match was the Owen Tribute with Benoit.

 

Hart/Austin at Mania 13, I'd label as one of the WWE's three 5* matches. Even if you don't conider it 5*, its basically flawless and completely different from any of their previous encounters and anything in the history of the company for that matter. Historic, symbolic and a truly classy, great match on its own. The only thing I can ever find wrong with it after viewing it many times is a part where Austin seems to forget he should be selling the leg. I can't see how any of the brawling is lazy or unnecessary, its a physical match that totally engulfs the crowd into it and does absolutely everything it set out to do.

 

What you prefer is different to whats the best.

[King Cucaracha 0]

I'm probably in the minority, but I'd take Royal Rumble 1990 over Rumble '92.

 

DiBiase getting #1 was a great touch (as opposed to him being jobbed out in 92), the period from Roberts' entrance to Andre's entrance is booked pretty perfectly with a RED-HOT crowd, so RED-HOT it needs to be capitalised. Demolition get put over by eliminating Andre. Plus, there's the Hogan/Warrior showdown, which is again perfectly booked.

 

92 put Flair over, that's about it. 90 was a hotter match from start to finish (and didn't end as awkwardly) IMO. Aside from Hogan winning over Perfect, I'd say it was the best Rumble ever. But again, maybe it's just me.

[Guest Teq]

92 has an 'epic' feel to it as I've always felt it has so many segments to it that all link together so masterfully. Its like watching a great movie unfold.

[humanoid92 0]

I respect your opinion, but in all honesty I can't really see where your coming from because I disagree with the majority of your thoughts on the Submission match. Firstly Brets peak was the majority of his career, he was great for many years straight, even in the 80's he was having the best singles matches of the year more often than not, certainly when talking non-PPV. He never went out of his peak, even in 1999 he was still one of the best in the world. I disagree with your opinion of '97 being the beginning of the end for Bret, just take a look at Mayhem '99, 2 years on, it was just the start of another beginning. His last epic match was the Owen Tribute with Benoit.

 

Hart/Austin at Mania 13, I'd label as one of the WWE's three 5* matches. Even if you don't conider it 5*, its basically flawless and completely different from any of their previous encounters and anything in the history of the company for that matter. Historic, symbolic and a truly classy, great match on its own. The only thing I can ever find wrong with it after viewing it many times is a part where Austin seems to forget he should be selling the leg. I can't see how any of the brawling is lazy or unnecessary, its a physical match that totally engulfs the crowd into it and does absolutely everything it set out to do.

 

What you prefer is different to whats the best.

 

I respect your opinion too and I definitely agree with you that Bret was consistently great throughout his career and may not have had a clear peak as far as being a quality worker. The rankings I listed reflect which years I enjoyed from him the most. It wasn't an issue of Bret's ability during those times as much as it was an issue of the situations he was put in, the feuds he had, how he was booked, etc. For instance, I think most would agree that Bret wasn't booked very well during 1995. He was still just as good of a worker as he had been for years, but in '95 he wasn't put into many interesting new storylines (Lawler, Yankem, LaFitte, etc.) and took a backseat to the likes of Nash, Michaels, Sid, etc. in the main events. So that's why I ranked 1995 so lowly on the list. In that regard, like I said, to me the whole Hart Family saga of 1993 and 1994 were superior to the Bret/Austin feud of 1997 as a whole. That's not to say Bret/Austin wasn't a great match because it took place in 1997; the only reason I gave those rankings in the first place was just to emphasize my opinion that the earlier part of Bret's career was his peak storyline-wise. I think part of the reason the WM 13 match gets as much praise as it does is because it's the defining match in what many people on the internet consider to be the defining part of Bret's (and Austin's) career. The thing is, I don't think it was the defining part of Bret's career.

 

Regarding the match itself, I didn't say their brawling was lazy and unnecessary. I said it was the pre-cursor to the lazy unnecessary brawling that copycats implemented into nearly every single main event over the next two to three years. You say the match is flawless and completely different. Maybe it's just the perfectionist in me, but I don't see how you can definitively say it's flawless. And the fact that it's different makes it unique, not perfect. As far as crowd heat goes, sure, they were into it, but I can think of plenty of other matches that had more heat. And I've admitted the finish was perfect for the storyline, but it didn't exactly lend itself to a huge reaction from the live crowd. Austin passing out made for a great visual on-camera but it's an anti-climactic finish for the live crowd. A dramatic or sudden three-count is something eveyone at home and in the arena can go crazy for. Like I said, that's no fault of Bret or Austin, but it's an inherent factor in I Quit matches to begin with. You're right that the match accomplished everything it set out to do, but just because it accomplished its goal isn't enough to automatically make it the best ever.

 

As far as my preferences being different than what's "best", well, that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. If "what's best" wasn't subjective, then there wouldn't be any reason for this thread in the first place because we'd all already know what the best ten matches of the 90's were. Who decides what's best? What's generally accepted as "the best" is based on the preferences of the majority. So personal preferences always play a part in such a subjective issue.

 

Again, I really do like the WM 13 match. I can just think of others that I think are better.

 

Just out of curiosity, what are the other two WWF/E matches that you consider to be five stars?

 

PS- I agree with your other post about the '92 Rumble. Also, the fact that the World Title was on the line and there were so many legitimate contenders (Hogan, Taker, Flair, Savage, Sid, Piper, etc.). And the fact that a heel went over, a number as high as #3 went over, AND the fact that a guy had been around for less than six months and wasn't over 300 pounds went over were all huge milestones. There was really no precedent for any of that.

 

I think 1990 was a great Rumble too, probably the second best of the '90s, but I still prefer '92.

[World's Worst Man 0]

I like Bret-Austin from WMXIII less and less each time I see it. It's certainly not a flawless match, as some segments of the match just aren't very good (crowd brawling for example) and there's generally not enough intensity from Bret. It's still a high quality match and I'd probably put it in the top 10 WWF matches of all time, but only because there's not really a lot to choose from.

 

I like the theory that this match was the pre-cursor to the lazy, over-booked brawls that became a staple in the WWF main event scene. It's a shame, because the style wasn't really all that interesting and was never really done better, except for perhaps the JBL/Guerrero blood-bath. It was definitely a huge step-down from the typical Bret Hart title defenses you saw during the mid 90's.

[Black Lushus 0]

Just out of curiosity, what are the other two WWF/E matches that you consider to be five stars?

 

well I don't know what HE wold consider 5 stars but:

 

Savage/Steamboat-WM 3

Austin/Hart-WM 13

Warrior/Savage-WM 7

92 Rumble

10 man tag-Canadian Stampede

 

 

those are matches i can watch over and over again and never get tired of...I can't really think of any others right now that i could put in that same boat. Obviously, the actual wrestling isn't what makes them 5 star matches, just the overall package, storyline, crowd heat, psychology, etc.

[Guest Teq]

I respect your opinion too and I definitely agree with you that Bret was consistently great throughout his career and may not have had a clear peak as far as being a quality worker. The rankings I listed reflect which years I enjoyed from him the most. It wasn't an issue of Bret's ability during those times as much as it was an issue of the situations he was put in, the feuds he had, how he was booked, etc. For instance, I think most would agree that Bret wasn't booked very well during 1995. He was still just as good of a worker as he had been for years, but in '95 he wasn't put into many interesting new storylines (Lawler, Yankem, LaFitte, etc.) and took a backseat to the likes of Nash, Michaels, Sid, etc. in the main events. So that's why I ranked 1995 so lowly on the list.

In terms of booking I agree he obviously had periods that were better than others, as you say '95 being on the lower end, I assumed you meant his work. I've actually defended his '95 work recently in the sense that Bret did the best he could with the opposition and matches he was given, he certainly proved himself once his title reign started and even then they failed to capitalise. WWF didn't capitalise on the fact that Bret was viewed as a legend wrestler with a big history and reputation, as he himself says within his DVD.

 

In that regard, like I said, to me the whole Hart Family saga of 1993 and 1994 were superior to the Bret/Austin feud of 1997 as a whole. That's not to say Bret/Austin wasn't a great match because it took place in 1997; the only reason I gave those rankings in the first place was just to emphasize my opinion that the earlier part of Bret's career was his peak storyline-wise. I think part of the reason the WM 13 match gets as much praise as it does is because it's the defining match in what many people on the internet consider to be the defining part of Bret's (and Austin's) career. The thing is, I don't think it was the defining part of Bret's career.

 

 

I love the brother/family feud in '94 don't get me wrong but to me it just doesn't reach the gritiness, controversy and overall mileage that they squeeze out of the Bret/Austin feud. It began at SS '96 and was still going on in the summer of '97 at Canadian Stampede. Bret won 1 clean, Bret controversially won one, then Austin won at IYH. With the Bret and Owen series, they had the WM match, Action Zone match and then Summerslam Cage match, but then it just got dropped in favour of Backlund, when it would of made more sense to carry on the feud, possibly even until WM 11 where an Owen/Bret I Quit match would have served much better a purpose than Bret/Backlund. Owen never got over as a main eventer once he wasn't opposing Bret and the whole feud didn't achieve what it ultimately could have. Hart/Austin on the other hand turned the face of the company around.

 

Personally, I've never viewed it as a defining part of Brets career, but I've always found it a defining moment in Austins and I can't see how on earth it isn't.

 

Regarding the match itself, I didn't say their brawling was lazy and unnecessary. I said it was the pre-cursor to the lazy unnecessary brawling that copycats implemented into nearly every single main event over the next two to three years.

I didn't find this to be clearly defined within your post but I understand and now totally see what you mean and agree.

 

You say the match is flawless and completely different. Maybe it's just the perfectionist in me, but I don't see how you can definitively say it's flawless.

 

 

Barring the slight touch of no-selling by Austin there's not a thing wrong with it whatsoever, and even this minor mistake I've never viewed as a whole lot noticeable to be honest and only picked up on it after viewing it into the double figures. Every match has flaws that you can pick out but this is as close to damn perfection as it comes, especially when its a half hour PPV match that has all eyes on it.

 

And the fact that it's different makes it unique, not perfect.

It was perfect as far as what it accomplished. As a match to me, its just the perfect match. It means so much, tells a great story, single handedly turned the anti-hero into the hero and made Austin a bigger star, all in one match. To me thats as close to perfection as pro-wrestling can get.

 

As far as crowd heat goes, sure, they were into it, but I can think of plenty of other matches that had more heat.

 

 

The thing is though, there wasn't a definitive heel and face. The crowd was slowly turning and they were both pretty much tweeners, although I'd say Austin was still more of a heel than face. The crowd were on edge, unsure of what was to happen. Come the end, the whole building was booing Bret and was the most heat he'd ever had up until that point.

 

And I've admitted the finish was perfect for the storyline, but it didn't exactly lend itself to a huge reaction from the live crowd. Austin passing out made for a great visual on-camera but it's an anti-climactic finish for the live crowd. A dramatic or sudden three-count is something eveyone at home and in the arena can go crazy for.

The job of the match wasn't to provide the same luxuries as a standard match. This was so different to anything else in terms of character and direction of the company. It was superbly booked and why should they sacrifice what they're trying to achieve (and did achieve) just to treat the live audience to a clean 1,2,3 when theres more people watching at home anyway than the live audience. The place still went nuts during and after the sharpshooter sequence. Harts heeling on Austins leg and the declining of fighting Shamrock is what gave the live audience that final heat and rush. It was so beautifully done on a whole.

 

Like I said, that's no fault of Bret or Austin, but it's an inherent factor in I Quit matches to begin with. You're right that the match accomplished everything it set out to do, but just because it accomplished its goal isn't enough to automatically make it the best ever.

 

 

I don't rank it as one of the best ever solely on the fact it fulfilled its goals, I base it on the actual match itself aswell as the historic result of the match. The match itself was undeniably fantastic on all levels of pro-wrestlings context.

 

As far as my preferences being different than what's "best", well, that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. If "what's best" wasn't subjective, then there wouldn't be any reason for this thread in the first place because we'd all already know what the best ten matches of the 90's were. Who decides what's best? What's generally accepted as "the best" is based on the preferences of the majority. So personal preferences always play a part in such a subjective issue.

Yes but some peoples opinions cross the line, such as within this thread people putting forth Foley/Taker HIAC. Anybody with half a brain can see its based around 2 bumps and without them, it would be nothing. Historic and career changing, yes, but one of the best pro-wrestling matches in North America, give me a break.

 

 

Some people will prefer a 12 minute 3-way spotfested match between Nitro, Benjamin and Carlito as opposed to a 45 minute Misawa/Kawada match, but it doesn't mean its better.

 

I guess I'm just saying that opinions have to be unbiased and reasonable, with others agreeing the same. I do see what you mean but I didn't intend for you to take my comment the wrong way.

 

Again, I really do like the WM 13 match. I can just think of others that I think are better.

 

 

I can't think of too many North American matches that are better, but can think of more from the east. Myself, I class it as one of the finest pro-wrestling matches there is.

 

My other 5* matches from WWF are:

 

Hart/Hart - Mania 10

Michaels/Taker - IYH 18 HIAC

 

These are of course just from my own way of rating matches and my own opinion and I don't preach it as the bible.

 

I concur about Royal Rumble '92 aswell.

 

I'd also like to add that I'm glad I could immediately indulge in some good discussion upon signing up here.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Just out of curiosity, what are the other two WWF/E matches that you consider to be five stars?

 

well I don't know what HE wold consider 5 stars but:

 

Savage/Steamboat-WM 3

Austin/Hart-WM 13

Warrior/Savage-WM 7

92 Rumble

10 man tag-Canadian Stampede

 

 

those are matches i can watch over and over again and never get tired of...I can't really think of any others right now that i could put in that same boat. Obviously, the actual wrestling isn't what makes them 5 star matches, just the overall package, storyline, crowd heat, psychology, etc.

Check out that Slaughter/Sheik match if you haven't before. It's the only WWE match that Loss gave five stars.