State of the SWF, 2007

[HollywoodSpikeJenkins 0]

Don't worry guys, I'm returning soon. All will be well.

[Ace309 0]

Look, I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't. If I set a date for the final show, we get the complaints in this thread about pointlessness and legacies and so forth. If I just close our doors, we have people complaining that I didn't warn them before I shut the place down. MVS, Raynor and I have discussed this and we think that the complaints are by far the lesser evil. Some people are very connected to their characters, and as I said, they deserve the chance to retire their characters or send them on to the next stage in their existence the way they want to.

 

I understand the concerns about alienating potential noobs, but let's be realistic here: what noobs? Pretty much every new writer we've had for the past two years has been from the neo-IGNWF through JJ or Akira. That resource is more or less tapped out.

 

I will not be a part of anything that removes the essence of the SWF, that is, the competitive-matchwriting system. The answer to our problems isn't to become the OAOAST, because there already is an OAOAST, and they have a better infrastructure for it than we do.

 

Look, I'm not trying to be inflexible. I'm not a unitary executive - my word isn't law. I'm just an administrator, trying to make things go smoothly. If anyone wants to advertise, feel free to do so. I'll help. If anyone has ideas, tell me. I'll do my best to implement them, subject to the whims of the fed.

 

As I said, if we can manage to get an influx of new writers, then this whole thread becomes irrelevant and I step back sheepishly. I hope we look back on this as Tom's version of closing the patent office because everything has been invented. That said, it's going to take ideas I don't have and more work than I've seen out of the fed in the past eighteen months put together to put us back on the right track.

[The Ill One 0]

You know, there's something that I have always wondered- is it purely nastalagia of "better days" or was the interaction (in terms of feedback) ever that great? I remember a few times skimmin' old, old shows (trip down memory lane and such) where comments were mostly feedback, hell, once Edwin and somebody else even debated about a single move written. Are we just doing this for the sake of our own characters and now we hear something like this and being creatures of habit it just fucks with us? This isn't accusing anybody, really, since we're all guilty but who still reads the shows? Who still pays attention to bulk of the federation besides one thing that may catch their eye, if that? The whole idea of feedback does make the federation a bit better than an e-dickin' competition of seeing your own match posted (though that does feel damn good and if it didn't then we wouldn't bother).

 

I don't want the fed to end and I couldn't tell you exactly why... maybe I haven't left any sort of "legacy" or accomplishment or maybe since after so many years it's just an odd thought. Either way, though, it'd be great if we could find a way to survive then thrive but if nothing else then we should go out on a high note.

[chirs3 0]

I hope we look back on this as Tom's version of closing the patent office because everything has been invented.

 

I have nothing to add at the moment - I just think Tom has said it better than I ever could right there.

[muzz 0]

Before you finally close up shop, it would be worthwhile trying to move to a different forum, one with more active people discussing wrestling. As has been mentioned, we're never going to get the influx of recruits we had at the IGN boards, or at the early stages of this board.

 

I think the current roster and CC are just too 'old', in terms of their fed life and otherwise. I was, and this is scary, about 13 or 14 when I first joined the IGNJL. Now, I'd like to come back, but I just don't have that in me anymore, something that only new competition could provide.

 

If the IGNSWF does finally close, it's been a great ride, and we've had a fantastic collection of people join.

[King Cucaracha 0]

This isn't accusing anybody, really, since we're all guilty but who still reads the shows? Who still pays attention to bulk of the federation besides one thing that may catch their eye, if that? The whole idea of feedback does make the federation a bit better than an e-dickin' competition of seeing your own match posted (though that does feel damn good and if it didn't then we wouldn't bother).

 

I, honestly, try to read every word of every show during some sort of downtime. I'm just terrible at feedback, or at least relevant feedback.

 

Now, when I say it's pointless going on if there's an end date, that's just my personal feeling. Maybe I feel differently because eitherway I'm not retiring my character. I'm just, personally, not interested if this place becomes an extended funeral procession. Personally, I guess I could stick around and try to do the Grand Slam of titles, have a quick feud with someone from my past, find a big match for Genesis. But, would any of it matter in the end? Would having won all the titles, besides being a nice trivia bit, be worth it for me? That's all I'm saying.

 

If it's a case of drawing out till October, then maybe I can find time to become a marker or something. I've been here 3 and a half years without any official hiatus and part of me wants to stick around and try to make this place good for the next half year and hopefully longer. But it's just I don't know if I could summon up the enthusiasm.

 

 

Tom, if JJ had shown for the World Title Match, would you have honestly felt the need to post this thread? Because before that, I thought the moving to one show a week was working okay. I'm not involved in everything like you so obviously I don't know the full story, but still.

[Guest Divefire]

Hrm I suppose I'll come out of lurking and add my thoughts to this.

 

I think the SWF may have gotten to the point of being to good. And by that I mean the standards of writing here. I myself look at some of the things that are written here and I don't think I could out write them, I don't think I'd want to put the time in to try and do it either. As a new person coming in, seeing the quality of the matches I think I'd be intimidated rather then inspired. With out being unkind the roster is 10 deep at the moment? And why work that hard to impress 10 people?

 

One of the reasons the IGNWF took off was that for the most part we were all rubbish. We had a vague idea of what we were doing and how to compose matches and role plays. We watched each other, talked, shared ideas and grew as a group, while all scrambling to be at the top of that pile. Match length got out of hand, we put in word limits to save the markers sanity (and the writers for that matter). The real secret was though that there was a depth of talent, not to say every one wrote gold, but there was a range from the great, to the not so great, so people coming up from the JL felt they had a chance to compete against the the WF crew. Some made it, some didn't, but they all felt as if they could do it. But that was when the fed was months, or only a year or so old. Now you've got talented writers who have been at this a long time, who have it down to an art form and have the experience of how to get matches out.

 

That in itself is hard enough to work against, but then with out a format to gain the experience of how to write a competitive match? Forget it. And then you've got burn out. Doing anything at a high level takes its tole, life gets in the way of hobbies, shit happens. And to be the SWF World Champion you can't let any of those things get in the way because you never know when some one's going to write 20'000 words to kick your ass.

 

That's the one thing this format has never been very good at, and that's protecting the writers.

 

If you want the fed to go on, and I'd like to see it carry on in some form to, at the very least to know something I've been a part of keeps on rolling, that odd human condition of wanting a legacy I suppose, then it absolutely needs new blood. How do you get that? Well moving would be the first suggestion, the Smark Marks may have been home for awhile now, but it doesn't have traffic. The last article was posted on Jun 30th 2006 and that's not healthy. There are a few entertainment sites out there with wrestling sides to them and forums, go see if there's room to start a match writing e-fed. It doesn't have to be the SFW that was the IGNWF it can be new, it can be the idea. The idea has always worked. People like beating other people.

 

You also need a feeder system of some kind. Maybe not a separate federation but at the very least a newbie belt with a low word limit that veterans are ineligible for. Something to encourage people to grow with out scaring them shitless that they have to write 6000 word epics once a week.

 

Maybe consider having tighter word limits? Do all the matches really need to be 5000 words? Can you not write a match in 3000 or 4000? Getting a good short match out can be as much of a challenge and an art as a good long match, but it might protect the writers some.

 

Sorry if that all comes over as a little harsh, I'm just expressing opinion and perspective here. The fact the federation has been going for so long, seen so many talented writers pass though it, seen so many entertaining stories written for it, all the work and sweat and tears that has been hammered into it over the years, is a credit to all of you. I hope there can be a way to carry it on, but if not, some one book me for the last night, ok?

[Bruce Blank 0]

Man this really is a shitty situation, I don't want the fed to close down but then again I'm not sure what to really do to change it.

 

I think some people just needs to know if this announcement is "we're definitly closing down" or more of a "Well if this doesn't pick up we'll close down": No hope or a glimmer of hope so I understand Landon's reaction and comments 100%.

 

I dunno what else to say.

[Ace309 0]

Tom, if JJ had shown for the World Title Match, would you have honestly felt the need to post this thread? Because before that, I thought the moving to one show a week was working okay. I'm not involved in everything like you so obviously I don't know the full story, but still.

Yes. It had been in the works for quite some time, and I'd been putting off posting it. I think we were discussing it back in December. If I care enough to do it, I might move the discussion thread over from the CC board.

 

The symptoms reach far beyond the lack of interest in the titles. I'll reiterate what's been said - we don't get new writers, there's no feedback or sense of community, and too many people just don't give a shit about anything that goes on in the fed that doesn't involve their own character. The big one here is the lack of new writers, obviously.

 

Seriously, if I were making rash decisions based on JJ no-showing something important, I'd have shut down the fed months ago.

[Zack Malibu 0]

As the "poster boy" for the OAOAST, I can sympathize with a lot of what's going on. We're faced with a lot of the issues that plague you guys.

 

We haven't had new additions in God knows how long. The few we've gained have pretty much petered out, with the exception of a few. It's gotten to the point where there's not only secondary characters, but third and fourth tier characters just because we've had the time on our hands to do it, and want some extra faces on our shows. You guys are a small community and because you do things different than us, you don't have the option of creating extra characters, but at the same time we've now found that we're quite cluttered with alot of these characters (although several guys have put their thoughts in about making it work).

 

Feedback is also a problem. I'm as guilty of anyone for it, because normally I read our shows (posted on Thursday nights) either late that night or Friday during the workday, and being an office supervisor on the last "full" day of the week, I don't get a chance to go through the show again, or leave detailed feedback as I'd like. I'm barely on the 'net over the weekend, and by the time Monday rolls around, I'm more worried about my writing for the coming show than writing about the previous one. I, personally, will always compliment and discuss things with the people involved in my writings, so they know my feelings, and I'm sure it's the same for the rest of us since we're based on co-writes and compromise. I feel bad that I don't get a chance to compliment those that I'm not involved with, because it's not that I don't see their effort, but whether I thought something was merely OK or thought it was one of the best things done in the fed, "real life" more often than not prevents me from leaving my thoughts.

 

I've only recently become active here again, so I have less room to talk than all of the mainstays, but it's still sad to know that this is the tail end of your run. I enjoyed using the Todd Cortez character here (actually, the SWF gave birth to that character, as it was the first time I had ever used him, not wanting to use Malibu or any other of my OAOAST creations). I enjoy being here as Zack and working the somewhat "cross-promotion" angle. I also appreciate the working arrangement we've seemed to develop in recent years, with the character crossovers, and the allowing of OAOAST angles like when the GPX got into it with Bruce Blank and Bloodshed, on your shows.

 

Interest is always a factor in things, and the lack of new faces, new challenges, and feedback can hurt that. We know it, and you guys know it as well.

 

Without turning this into a shill of any kind, let it be known that if anyone would like to do what Blank, KC, MVS, Rando or myself have done, with double duty or cross-promotion, it's fully welcome to benefit BOTH federations. I know not all of my fellow OAOASTers are fans of the SWF style or would be able to swing the workload, but there might be someone willing to work a dual-fed angle with you if anyone wants to shake things up. That lends to our efforts of compromise more than the normal "write against" style of the SWF, but I felt that I should offer the opportunity.

 

I can't promise that anyone from the OAOAST not involved with the SWF already reads Storm or any of the PPV's, or vice versa, but perhaps again, some cross-promotion in the form of feedback could do well for us also. You read ours, we read yours? That way some outside forces are seeing your work, and can honestly critique it and point out the highs and lows without the normal "pat on the back" feedback that we all use to encourage our peers.

 

I just figured that I'd throw this in the hat, since again, we are faced with a lot of these same problems, and they've sadly affected you to this point. I hope that some of what's been suggested (and not just by me) works out, because I think that the lull can be turned around.

[King Cucaracha 0]

I think I suggested the cross-over slash co-operation thing already (I'm sure I pitched doing a joint show at one point) but somebody shot it down pretty quick.

 

We haven't had new additions in God knows how long. The few we've gained have pretty much petered out, with the exception of a few. It's gotten to the point where there's not only secondary characters, but third and fourth tier characters just because we've had the time on our hands to do it, and want some extra faces on our shows. You guys are a small community and because you do things different than us, you don't have the option of creating extra characters, but at the same time we've now found that we're quite cluttered with alot of these characters (although several guys have put their thoughts in about making it work).

 

Well, there's Bruce, who (and this is as good an opportunity to say it as any) has fit in amazingly quickly and become a big part of the fed now. The amount of characters isn't neccessarily a bad thing imo, I like having more options available to me like that.

 

 

Maybe if people were allowed more than one character here, say a maximum of three if they were interested, with them specifiying which character they wanted booked each week, that might freshen things up. No offence to him, but every time I see I'm booked against Michael Cross I die a little inside because I've used pretty much everything I've got against him. Guys like Johnny and Wildchild who I've been writing against for three and a half years are worse. The thing about writing OAOAST is I can be writing a different match with different characters every week for who knows how long. We haven't got that many more active writers over there than here, but our shows are five times as long. There's got to be SOMETHING in that, surely?

[Toxxic 0]

I've got to say, if someone won't show for one character I doubt they'll show for three, even if they're only writing one at a time. Plus that leads to the uneasy situation of some characters can never be booked against each other. I mean, for a little while i was writing as Mike and/or Amy as the situation dictated, but although they were both wrestling in the same 'division' (unlike the short-lived Women's division), they'd never face off due to being brother and sister. But supposing I was to start writing as Mike and TORU, it's likely that at some point logic would dictate they'd face each other - at which point either we'd bypass logic, or I'd just decide who I wanted to win.

 

SOMEBODY PLEASE READ THIS IDEA AND GIVE ME FEEDBACK ON IT BEYOND SNARKY COMMENTS.

 

Seriously - MySpace. There are FIVE HUNDRED groups devoted to wrestling on there. And yes, some are for amateur wrestling. And some are for 'gay wrestling for men'. And there's a Shawn Michaels fan group. But for pity's sake, there are THOUSANDS of people on there talking about wrestling, some of them have got to have some brains, and some of them can surely be persuaded to try a new challenge.

 

Let's take this to the extreme - we MOVE the fed to MySpace. We set up the SWF group and use that as the forum. We spam-add every fucker we see who can write English wot doznt lok like it woz writen by sum tottal m0r0n and see what happens? I mean, I'll say now that I for one am never going to link my REAL MySpace profile to anything involving e-fedding, because I have my pride. But I'd create an account that I'd use purely for MySpace.

 

We're looking for a site with traffic, and MySpace tells me there is in excess of ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY FIVE MILLION active accounts on there. That's something like twice the total population of the British Isles. That's TRAFFIC.

 

Anyone with me on this as a possibility?

[Smartly Pretty 0]

I find myspace to individual based. It's very comment this person, comment that person, but never really everyone reading and everyone talking together.

[Toxxic 0]

Yeah, but if WE all read and talk together on this one subject, there's no problem right?

[Secret Agent 0]

Like I told you over AIM, I think that creating an SWF group on My Space is a very good idea. One of the bad things about the forums we reside on is the lack of new traffic and My Space always has traffic. We'd most likely have to deal with some Cut Throats, but if we find one King for every five Cut Throats we'd be doing good.

 

I'd say start a group and if it really picks up move the whole damned operation there.

[Smartly Pretty 0]

No, because it actually enforces what mvs was talking about, with only talking to people he knows and stuff.

[Justice 0]

No. I honestly don't think it'd work.

 

Like the above comment, it's really individual-based. Plus spamming makes us look bush-league. Right now there are maybe a decent half-dozen or so boards that we could start to work, but it'll take time.

 

The biggest problem we need to mend is no-showing. If we no-show, no one will join the fed. We need to solve the problems with current membership before we can look outwards and expand. Otherwise we're just pumping blood in to a gaping wound, and won't be able to pump it in fast enough.

[the.weej 0]

I totally disagree with Justicar up there. MySpace is unconventional and would require some kind of acrobatics to figure out how we'd do shows and promos, but it has tremendous upside. MySpace is individual based, yes... but think of all the bands that have MySpace pages, and how popular that's become as a medium to push music on a new audience. Movies and games have MySpace pages now. Frankly, the commerical aspect of MySpace is quickly starting to overpower the personal "social networking" aspect it was founded on. We could alter the joining format in such a way that you had to create a MySpace page for your character, which opens up different opportunities for individual character expansion.

 

If MySpace isn't really workable, smaller sites in the same vein like Nextopia also have the same potential. This is a radical, make or break idea, but it has the potential to pay much, much bigger dividends than even IGN could have. The only problem is what's already been mentioned: For it to work like it's supposed to, the entire operation must be moved. This goes the same for anything else; you can't half ass it like the website and have it just kind of sitting there, seeing if it magically "gets popular" while it's business as usual on the boards and we ignore it like some leper.

 

Honestly, what have you got to lose? If it kills the fed, well, that's that. At least we tried something, and tried on a scale large enough to make an impact.

 

-Z

[the.weej 0]

Also, we need to get it out of our head that spamming makes us look "bush league." Spamming is ugly and annoying, but it gets the word out, pure and simple. You show me a spammer, and I'll show you somebody who gets their links clicked on.

 

-Z

[King Cucaracha 0]

Put it this way, at the moment we're done. A MySpace page, although I'm not on it and never ever intend to be in my life, can't do any more damage.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

Horrible, horrible news.

 

I'll have to figure out some sort of schedule but I would like to comeback for this final run and make the most of it. Hopefully more vets will comeback as well, even if we can't save the fed, at least it can go out with a strong year.

[Justice 0]

Meh.

 

I'm not in favor of moving the fed to MySpace, simply because I'm avoiding all journals like the plague nowadays.

 

But if we did it concurrently, that wouldn't be a bad thing. I just don't think moving everything over to MySpace is all that good for things like show posting and such. I mean, I'd create a MySpace for that (Like Toxx), but moving everything? That's... just not good, in my opinion.

[Toxxic 0]

When I say 'spam' I mean targetted marketing in a big way. As in, we don't just spam anyone, but find people who list wrestling as a major interest and who preferably have some grasp of written English. Hell, we could even divide it up so people don't get pissed off with us repeatedly spamming them so, for example, I'd contact people in the UK, Tom would contact people in or near New York, and so on.

 

I'd envisage one profile being the SWF Profile, which would be created on a new email address with the password given to anyone on CC. So that profile is the Forum Leader, and that profile could potentially contain a lot of the fed info (joining, etc). A bulletin sent out by the SWF profile would reach all members of the fed, which could be a handy feature.

 

Then everyone else has a profile for their character. The character stats could go in the 'About Me' part of a MySpace profile. The SWF Profile posts the card on the forum (and maybe bulletins it as well) and you go to your MySpace friends and click on your opponent to check their stats haven't changed.

 

As someone (I think Divefire) said, we're good at this match-writing thing, so it's only reasonable to expect that n00bies would not be as good because even the newest of us have at least a year of practice (except Herzog and Nighthawk I guess, but Herzog seems to have disappeared and Nighthawk's not active for now, at least). However, if we get a reasonable influx there's no reason why we can't have a JL equivalent, or a Rookie Title, or something like that.

[Toxxic 0]

Judge - you want to say to these people "come join our fed, but you've got to come to this other website and create a new account to do it", or you want to say "come join our fed, look, it's here, you don't need to leave MySpace"?

 

That's a no-brainer, surely.

[Justice 0]

Dude, clicking a link doesn't hurt that much, does it? I mean, crap, if we have people dissuaded due to joining a single forum, then I'm not sure how dedicated these people are going to be when it comes to writing matches.

 

On the comment of "All or nothing", I don't see why it has to be. The problem with everything is that we never used it, and I agree that it won't work if we don't use it. Then again, there are dozens of feds who magically seem to be able to update and use their websites without abandoning their boards. We just need to keep the site active, put results, news stories, and actually make use of it. We can post stories, but I dunno if I really want to mae

 

In my opinion, we are overreacting to what is essentially something we could do through an organized effort. Every time we run into this problem, we have no organization, we just go out, do something, then stop after a few weeks. Just running around on the internet does nothing for us. A MySpace move won't work magically if we don't change our habit of stopping after a few weeks. Not to say I'm not incredibly, especially prone to this, as I am. But. I think that's what we need to focus on at present. A MySpace move won't stop people from No-Showing. Things need to change with the staff and the roster at present before we do these sorts of things.

[Toxxic 0]

That's bollocks, pardon me saying so. We've already established that the roster as is won't cut it, both in size AND commitment. What we NEED is new people, and we're more likely to get them elsewhere, and MySpace has the sort of traffic which means we should still get a fairly high amount of interested people simply through the sheer volume. Maybe they'll show. If they DO show and they beat no-showing veterans, maybe that'll encourage them to write more? I know one of my major motivating factors when I started was that I was kicking arse, and I did that mainly by showing when other, more experienced and established writers didn't.

 

So maybe some regulars get a kick up their arse when they lose to n00bs. Maybe we get a new crop coming up and just displace the old, non-showing regulars. Either way, the fed's re-energised in a better way than just sitting around and going "well, until us dozen writers get better we don't want to try and get anyone else involved".

[Golgo 13 0]

About MySpace, it could work really well as the communications base of the fed, where board promos and general interaction can be posted as part of the group forum, while announcements, cards and results can be posted as part of bulletins, and optional character profiles sound like they can work. If I'm not mistaken we already have an SWF group set up already anyway.

 

The problem is moving 'everything' because, as Judge said, shows would be problematic, as would customization and clutter.

 

If we had a site (and I hate to keep bringing it up), it would be easy enough to post shows there and link to them in the results, but as it is, it wouldn't be a problem continuing to post shows here with no obligation to register and linking to them on MySpace, right? And we wouldn't have to drop our association with TSM. Though that, too, brings up the synchronization problem we had when the site was running (and by proxy, X-Net) where we had to keep our attention on both and eventually let one drop.

 

Anyway, it's simple enough to start off on MySpace by working on the profile and getting the word out, directing people to the group first where maybe we post a simplified FAQ and board link, then if there's enough response, moving more functions there.

[Toxxic 0]

If we do it over two sites there's always the risk something gets missed. Supposing you want to contact someone, do you contact them on their TSM account or their MySpace one? Maybe they'll check one more than the other. Do we post everything twice in case people miss it on one forum?

 

I really, honestly think that if it's possible to do, we should up sticks and move because people are more likely to be interested if they can do it all on one site, and don't have to keep track of two at once. I'm sure of this. I mean, if it turns out that posting a show and stuff is simply NOT viable on MySpace's forums, then I'll relax my views on this. As it is, I don't necessarily see why it shouldn't be. People have said it'll be a problem, but no-one's told me WHY.

[King Cucaracha 0]

Would we be moving the TSM archives (ie. every show, every promo, etc.) to MySpace? And wouldn't that take forever?

[Toxxic 0]

No. Why should we? Did we move everything when we left IGN? More importantly, do you think TSM will notice that we're gone and close the forums? I doubt it. If necessary a few of us just post here couple times a week to keep them open and accessible.