TUF V: The Thread

[Mik 0]

Yeah. Last night at 11.

 

Full card:

 

Main Card (Televised)

 

* B.J. Penn vs. Jens Pulver

* Nate Diaz (Finalist #1) vs. Manny Gambaryan (Finalist #2)

* Roger Huerta vs. Doug Evans

* Thales Leites vs. Doug Sword

 

Undercard (May Not Be Broadcast)

 

* Joe Lauzon vs. Brandon Melendez

* Cole Miller vs. Andy Wang

* Rob Emerson Vs. Gray Maynard

* Allen Berube vs. Leonard Garcia

* Brian Geraghty vs. Matt Wiman

 

Corey Hill is apparently injured.

 

I can't wait.

[Nate 0]

i can see Joe Lauzon havin a future in UFC or maybe WEC, i'm gonna go with the following results

 

Penn over Pulver by decsion

Diaz over Manny by split decsion

Huerta by KO over Doug Evans

Thales by tapout over Doug Sword

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

If you think he got hit twice then I'm not going to bother. Watch it again. Bottom line is MMA is a fight, if I'm getting my ass whooped but I'm throwing up subs and none of them are causing the tap, I'm not gonna feel like I won the round. I'd feel embarrassed that I did all that work and made no effect on my opponent, while I have a bunch of bruises and cuts on my face. The strikes from the bottom were not as effective, they look nice, but really don't hurt that much compared to how much damage was done from top. If you don't think that slowed down Diaz then you should explain why after they stood up he was lobbing those jabs and couldn't keep his hands up. He was hurt.

 

 

Explain why Gray gassed so fast at the beginning of the 2nd round then, if he wasn't being worked extra hard in the 1st?

 

I STILL don't see how you can say he was getting his ass 'whooped'. He got hit -solidly- twice. One on an elbow, and one on a nice looping right while he was in the middle of a sweep. And how can you say those punches weren't effective at all, because they sure slowed down Gray when he threw them. There is a big difference between crappy strikes from guard (which I've seen plenty of) and the ones that Nate threw in two series of strikes (Not all of them, but there were two series where he threw a combination of nice upstrikes).

 

And working your opponent over for submissions can use HIS energy up, and also will put you in good position. If he wasn't constantly looking for submissions, he wouldn't have gotten the position advantage in the early second round, and Gray may not have hurried so much to defend a nonexistant leglock, if he hadn't kept trying them in the first round.

 

And Diaz always has his hands like that. He STARTED the fight like that.

 

But at the end of the day if you JUST score a round based on 'damage' then it doesn't really reward people for attempting submissions and maintaining control of a fight and TRYING TO FINISH THE FIGHT. And as a -judge- and in -judging- a round, you're supposed to judge who won the fight, based on a variety of factors. Damage isn't even one of those factors, actually, though it surely can play a part.

 

And if those strikes really 'slowed' him down, why wasn't gray able to maintain control at ANY point in the fight, and why was Diaz able to constantly apply submissions entirely unaffected. Damage, to me, means you impede the other persons ability to fight.

 

Please tell me where I said submission attemps were not important, or where I said damage was the only thing that mattered. I didn't even imply that. There's a whole lot of arguing over nothing in this post. Most of your post is arguing stuff I didn't even say. He won the round because he threw him to the ground, maintained position, avoided submissions, most of which weren't close, and pounded Diaz' face. I'm not impressed at all with Diaz, other than his heart and toughness, and he should get steamrolled by Manny, as this is a DREAM match-up for a power grappler with good control and sub defense like Gamburyan. Diaz' only chance is to slip out and take Manny's back, or hope he makes a mistake and capitalizes, as Manny had this happen twice to him by lesser grapplers than Diaz. But Diaz' wrestling is shit, and he can't defend his face on the ground very well, so he should lose a decision as he is tough to finish.

 

Gray was tired because he's an MMA noob who is not used to fighting. Also, the submission attempts wore him down, which is why he was tired and tapped out eventually, that guillotine wasn't even all the way in, or from a full guard. He was gassed. But causing your opponent to tire doesn't mean you're winning a fight. Tito Ortiz lost to Frank Shamrock that way, but that doesn't mean he lost the rounds where that happened.

 

Diaz lobbed his jabs and punches, he was hurt from all the damage he took. Watch it again after they get up.

 

Gray also ragdolled Diaz to the ground, that is important as well.

 

You're telling me what they're supposed to judge the fight on? What makes you an authority? I'm going by what the UFC's criteria is, and it's pretty clear Gray won. In many organizations Gray wins that round, not just the UFC. Dana White is trying to push certain fighters, so of course he's going to completely discount Gray's work. I'm also going by what I personally think, which happens to agree with the UFC on this case, though it doesn't always like in the case of Charuto vs. Hughes.

 

Speaking of which, these submission attemps in the first round weren't that close apart from the armbar, and maybe one of the kimura's. Close submissions are Charuto-Hughes, Hughes-Newton, Karo-GSP, Newton-Pele (the first armbar), or Fitch-Roan with that anaconda choke. I've gotten subs at that point against guys and I don't feel they're close at all. They do a standard defense or escape and they're out. Close submissions are when standard defenses and escapes don't work, Gray did some basic stuff there to escape.

 

Maybe getting his ass whooped is a little strong, but he definitely lost that round and I don't see how anyone could give him the round.

[KingPK 0]

Of course I'm scheduled to work until 9:30 Saturday night, so I'll probably miss the first hour of the finale.

 

Dammit to hell.

Edited June 16, 2007 by KingPK

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

This Saturday? Finale is next Saturday. UFC 72 is this Saturday, scheduled at 12 pm oddly enough. Well I know it's because it is in Ireland, but still. I guess they wanna air it live. The more I think about it, the more I realize that this PPV has so many things going against it, and this will probably show what the absolute worst buyrate Zuffa can do. Bad card, horrible time, it's almost like they're stacking the deck against themselves just to see how low they can go.

[KingPK 0]

Yeah, I'm working next Saturday. Guess I'll watch the replay right after to see what I missed (before you ask, I don't have a TiVo/DVR)

[starvenger 0]

Diaz lobbed his jabs and punches, he was hurt from all the damage he took. Watch it again after they get up.

 

Gray also ragdolled Diaz to the ground, that is important as well.

 

You're telling me what they're supposed to judge the fight on? What makes you an authority? I'm going by what the UFC's criteria is, and it's pretty clear Gray won. In many organizations Gray wins that round, not just the UFC. Dana White is trying to push certain fighters, so of course he's going to completely discount Gray's work. I'm also going by what I personally think, which happens to agree with the UFC on this case, though it doesn't always like in the case of Charuto vs. Hughes.

 

Speaking of which, these submission attemps in the first round weren't that close apart from the armbar, and maybe one of the kimura's. Close submissions are Charuto-Hughes, Hughes-Newton, Karo-GSP, Newton-Pele (the first armbar), or Fitch-Roan with that anaconda choke. I've gotten subs at that point against guys and I don't feel they're close at all. They do a standard defense or escape and they're out. Close submissions are when standard defenses and escapes don't work, Gray did some basic stuff there to escape.

 

Maybe getting his ass whooped is a little strong, but he definitely lost that round and I don't see how anyone could give him the round.

I have to agree with YPoV here. While Nate was definitely working from the bottom, and throwing up sub attempt after sub attempt, Gray was still controlling the fight, and evading those subs. I mean, it clearly wasn't a 10-8 like B.J. was saying, but Gray still had dominant position, he was doing damage, and he was avoiding any sub attempts that Diaz threw at him.

 

But what the Nate did do that doesn't show up in scorecards is cause Maynard to wear himself out - judges see a fighter being extra-aggressive - they don't necessarily look for the reasons why. Whether it was intentional or not, Nate managed to set up Gray for making mistakes deeper into the fight, and that's pretty much what happened - Gray got tired, left an opening, and Nate took full advantage as he should.

[Guest Timmer]

Yeah. Last night at 11.

 

Full card:

 

Main Card (Televised)

 

* B.J. Penn vs. Jens Pulver

* Nate Diaz (Finalist #1) vs. Manny Gambaryan (Finalist #2)

* Roger Huerta vs. Doug Evans

* Thales Leites vs. Doug Sword

 

Undercard (May Not Be Broadcast)

 

* Joe Lauzon vs. Brandon Melendez

* Cole Miller vs. Andy Wang

* Rob Emerson Vs. Gray Maynard

* Allen Berube vs. Leonard Garcia

* Brian Geraghty vs. Matt Wiman

 

Corey Hill is apparently injured.

 

I can't wait.

 

I'm more than a little dissapointed that we aren't seeing a Lauzon/Miller rematch on this card...

[jwpeer 0]

Please tell me where I said submission attemps were not important, or where I said damage was the only thing that mattered. I didn't even imply that. There's a whole lot of arguing over nothing in this post. Most of your post is arguing stuff I didn't even say. He won the round because he threw him to the ground, maintained position, avoided submissions, most of which weren't close, and pounded Diaz' face. I'm not impressed at all with Diaz, other than his heart and toughness, and he should get steamrolled by Manny, as this is a DREAM match-up for a power grappler with good control and sub defense like Gamburyan. Diaz' only chance is to slip out and take Manny's back, or hope he makes a mistake and capitalizes, as Manny had this happen twice to him by lesser grapplers than Diaz. But Diaz' wrestling is shit, and he can't defend his face on the ground very well, so he should lose a decision as he is tough to finish.

 

Gray was tired because he's an MMA noob who is not used to fighting. Also, the submission attempts wore him down, which is why he was tired and tapped out eventually, that guillotine wasn't even all the way in, or from a full guard. He was gassed. But causing your opponent to tire doesn't mean you're winning a fight. Tito Ortiz lost to Frank Shamrock that way, but that doesn't mean he lost the rounds where that happened.

 

Diaz lobbed his jabs and punches, he was hurt from all the damage he took. Watch it again after they get up.

 

Gray also ragdolled Diaz to the ground, that is important as well.

 

You're telling me what they're supposed to judge the fight on? What makes you an authority? I'm going by what the UFC's criteria is, and it's pretty clear Gray won. In many organizations Gray wins that round, not just the UFC. Dana White is trying to push certain fighters, so of course he's going to completely discount Gray's work. I'm also going by what I personally think, which happens to agree with the UFC on this case, though it doesn't always like in the case of Charuto vs. Hughes.

 

Speaking of which, these submission attemps in the first round weren't that close apart from the armbar, and maybe one of the kimura's. Close submissions are Charuto-Hughes, Hughes-Newton, Karo-GSP, Newton-Pele (the first armbar), or Fitch-Roan with that anaconda choke. I've gotten subs at that point against guys and I don't feel they're close at all. They do a standard defense or escape and they're out. Close submissions are when standard defenses and escapes don't work, Gray did some basic stuff there to escape.

 

Maybe getting his ass whooped is a little strong, but he definitely lost that round and I don't see how anyone could give him the round.

 

 

I rewatched the first round of the fight, and I can see your points in terms of how close a few of the submissions were, and how many good strikes Gray got from the top.

 

My reaction, I think had more to do with seeing how Nate was gameplanning the entire fight, rather than the individual round, and I let that color my opinion of the round in terms of the scoring. To me, it looked as though he had the better round in terms of what he wanted from it, but I definitely can agree that Gray would win that round (Though not a 10-8 as BJ was trying to claim).

 

Part of it is I still feel that in the UFC scoring submission attempts aren't given nearly ENOUGH weight, and perhaps that G&P is given a little bit too much weight.

 

 

I totally agree with you about bein ragdolled, and 190% agree about Manny winning that fight. I don't see Diaz being able to get him into as many compromising positions, as Manny's body positioning once he has ground position is tremendous (Plus his nice little mini headbutts! ).

[Lord of The Curry 0]

For those fans (such as myself and pretty much everybody who likes MMA) who were hoping to see Nick Diaz in Nate's corner for the fight Saturday, think again. Nate's suspension for the chronic dating back to the Gomi fight is still in effect which prevents him from cornering as well.

[starvenger 0]

For those fans (such as myself and pretty much everybody who likes MMA) who were hoping to see Nick Diaz in Nate's corner for the fight Saturday, think again. Nate's suspension for the chronic dating back to the Gomi fight is still in effect which prevents him from cornering as well.

Also, Karo and Manny's primary trainer don't get along (per 5oz of Pain), so Karo apparently won't be cornering either.

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

Starvenger what's up with that ungodly av? But it did lead me to see that you're from Markham. Where abouts? Now I know you're oriental at the very least.

 

I really don't want to see Jens Pulver win. That would be a complete drag, man.

[starvenger 0]

Starvenger what's up with that ungodly av?

EHME is what's up with that. He had Ace, I had Okami.

 

But it did lead me to see that you're from Markham. Where abouts? Now I know you're oriental at the very least.

North side, near Angus Glen. I didn't know I made my being Asian a secret though?

 

I really don't want to see Jens Pulver win. That would be a complete drag, man.

I don't want to see either guy win, really.

[jwpeer 0]

I really don't want to see Jens Pulver win. That would be a complete drag, man.

I don't want to see either guy win, really.

 

 

This is funny, because i almost feel the same way.

 

I can't STAND Penn's spoiled rich kid attitude towards everyone/everything. Rubs my middle class ego totally raw.

 

I'd much rather Jens win, the only thing is I don't think he's any sort of contender in lightweight division.

 

But I'll be rooting for him anyhow. i just can't understand why so many people seem to be in love with Penn. His attitude is almost as bad as Hughes, imho.

 

 

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

When did Middle Class become bad? That's still pretty well off in my opinion. Anyway, Penn is the most talented and gifted fighter around, and very exciting. I don't really have any problems with his attitude.

 

Angus Glen eh? That's pretty far up north, past 16th I think, or close to it. If I knew that then I would have guessed you were white. Asian Markham is closer to the Pacific Mall area.

[starvenger 0]

Anyway, Penn is the most talented and gifted fighter around, and very exciting. I don't really have any problems with his attitude.

His attitude is, frankly, pretty lousy. He is really talented though, worthy of his nickname. He's also a big fighter at 155, and I'm not just talking about his head. That thing makes Karalexis' bobblehead look normal sized.

 

My main problem with Penn is that he's either gotten lazy or gassed in his last couple of fights, and it's cost him. It could easily happen again. Pulver, as Mr. Peer noted, isn't really a top contender at 155, and truth be told, I think he's better off as a coach/trainer at McMilitech.

 

Angus Glen eh? That's pretty far up north, past 16th I think, or close to it. If I knew that then I would have guessed you were white. Asian Markham is closer to the Pacific Mall area.

It's pretty much an Asian neighbourhood where I'm at. Let me put it this way - you could say "Somebody gonna get hurt real bad" at the park and most of the adults would laugh their heads off...

[Lord of The Curry 0]

I won't discount what YPOV said about BJ's skills, nobody's doubting them, my biggest gripe with Penn is that his fans act like he's done anything significant in the last few years, which he hasn't. Ever since beating Hughes his in-ring performances haven't lived up to the hype put into them.

 

Which isn't to say the fights with GSP and Hughes the second time around weren't good, they were. I just see BJ in the same boat as a guy like Lindland where their current resume isn't befitting of such massive levels of fandom.

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

Sakuraba hasn't done anything significant in almost a decade but he's still a legend in most fan's eyes. What BJ Penn accomplished nobody ever will for a long time, and that's beat the best LW and the best WW within the span of two months, with the latter being previously thought to be unstoppable and the best P4P force in the world. BJ destroyed him, and if he didn't seperate his rib, would have done it the second time too. I can't wait for that rematch (BJ said he doesn't want to stay at LW) so I can see BJ really dish it out to Matt Hughes. Also he put up damn good fights against MW in Rodrigo Gracie (who he dominated on the ground mind you) and Machida. This stuff happened well into 2005, and he had an inactive 2006 because he had other things going on, but after this Saturday we'll see what he does next. I watched the fight with GSP again and I still say it was a draw, unfortunately those aren't scored much.

 

For all of those who don't believe it was a legit injury, most people that were at the event said it was, except for Matt Hughes, but, well, yeah. Also, the only person I can see accomplishing multiple weight class domination like that now, is Kid Yamamoto, and even that is unlikely because he's even more undersized at LW than BJ is at WW. But he's a much better athlete so his physical gifts can diminish the size difference better I think. But hell, I'd like to see him fight a Gomi or Sherk before I go hugging his nuts.

[starvenger 0]

Also he put up damn good fights against MW in Rodrigo Gracie (who he dominated on the ground mind you) and Machida.

I'm gonna have to find a tape because "good fight" and "Machida" are not normally found in the same sentence...

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

Sorry, I didn't mean good as in entertaining, but he fought a valiant effort against someone a lot bigger than him, is what I'm saying.

[starvenger 0]

Well, thank goodness Machida stayed true to form, I guess.

[Lt. Al Giardello 0]

BJ got robbed vs. Machida.

[Conspiracy_Victim 0]

Well, that's something you don't see every day. A double "can't continue".

[Nate 0]

man that was insane, i've never seen anything like that in MMA ever, i cant wait for Manny vs Nate and then watch Penn own Pulver

[Conspiracy_Victim 0]

Nice Triangle from Lauzon.

[Conspiracy_Victim 0]

That SUCKS. Manny owned that first round. Odd that he didn't hurt the lead shoulder on that shoot.

[Conspiracy_Victim 0]

Yeah, Nate might want to be careful on his after match promos. But then, I guess that's why the FCC created the 5 second delay.

[Broward83 0]

The look on Matt's face after the fight is just fucking hilarious.

[Broward83 0]

Apparently BJ feels like he has an internal error:

 

Internal Server Error

The server encountered an internal error or misconfiguration and was unable to complete your request.

 

Please contact the server administrator, [email protected] and inform them of the time the error occurred, and anything you might have done that may have caused the error.

 

More information about this error may be available in the server error log.

 

Additionally, a 500 Internal Server Error error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.

[Hawkius Maximus 0]

This was a REALLY good show.

 

Nate Diaz going off on a rant was pretty fantastic too.