OAO WrestleMania 23 Thread-April 1st, 2007

[DrVenkman PhD 0]

Will anybody be going to see the show live?

 

I'll be there and I'm looking forward to it. This isn't the card I'd be excited to order on PPV (but would with friends since it's Mania) but I think it will be an ok show. Live, however, I'm really looking forward to going and being part of the Mania atmosphere. This will probably sound weird but last week I had an odd dream where I forgot my camera at home and couldn't take any pictures so I borrowed some random fan's camera. Last night I had a dream where I sat with a friend for the first match in seats at the top of the stadium, then went to go to my real seat (lower bowl) before the MITB match. Somehow in this dream I fell asleep on my way to the seat and woke up when everyone was leaving the show. I didn't want my friend telling me who won because I seemed aware enough this was all a dream and I didn't miss Mania, but somehow I kept thinking "no, this was real, I missed the show". He told me Cena beat Shawn, then I woke up and realized it really was all a dream.

 

I'm getting really pumped because of all the local newspaper articles, the mentions on the radio while I'm at work, and the Fan Axxess thing I was at yesterday. I'm really hoping I'm going to celebrate Shawn's WWE title win, but I'm fine either way.

[King Cucaracha 0]

then they really should go shades of gray...

 

Oh boy, you're gonna pay for that one! Shades of gray = unspoken Russo evil around here.

 

 

I think people just want Cena to turn heel so he'll stop cutting those goofy ass Rock style promos that he can't carry off where he talks too fast, too high and in too grating of a voice to be taken seriously. Every time in the past few months when he's been allowed to talk like a human being, he's been KILLER. Dead on what was needed to add credibility to the feud. And then the last Raw before Mania, he cuts a promo where he's half fantastic promo guy and half cartoon character and it just takes away from the good stuff.

 

Cena isn't going to get by on his ringwork (EDIT: And by that I mean get by in the places where he currently isn't getting by and is getting booed), he needs to be cutting convincing promos. As a face, the chances of him doing that or getting to do that whatever your viewpoint are too hit and miss. I'm not saying he should turn, but that's why if it were to happen I'd be happy about it.

[10 Pounds 0]

It's the 20th anniversary of Wrestlemania III, they brought back Aretha Franklin and they have the show in huge stadium in Detroit. They also wanted to do a tribute to Hogan/Andre with Hogan vs Show or Khali. Since the wrestlers will have to walk halfway through the stadium to get to the ring, they should bring back the old ring carts, that would be awesome. Everyone should use them, except for Taker since he always has a special entrance for Wrestlemania.

[iggymcfly 0]

Why does he have to be a heel? Why is this so imperative? It's a irrational move done for no purpose other than turning for the sake of turning. Cena works on many levels and it's this current character progression that allows him to be so successful. People want to turn him because it's felt that he gets boo'd in some markets indictates that he isn't over when every shred of evidence repudiates that way of thinking.

 

John Cena is over and is a successful draw who doesn't need to turn to satisfy a small minority and create a hole in not just John Cena himself but the entire promotion as well. It'd be like turning Hogan in 1990 where he was still over and making money for the promotion despite a vocal but small minority who were tired of the act.

 

When did being cheered by 50% of the markets become the litmus test for a babyface? Faces are supposed to be cheered everywhere, especially the top face of a company. When you're put against nothing but heels, booked as favorably as possible, partnered with faces to try to make you popular, and you're still booed by 30% of the fans, maybe you're not that popular. The only people that are still cheering him are those that go straight across mark lines, and as such, they'd be perfectly happy to boo Cena if he was booked as a heel and cheer for HBK instead.

 

Also, there's more reasons than just Cena being better as a heel that there needs to be a turn. Both title matches at Wrestlemania are booked as face vs. face. Why do you think that is? It's because the top four draws in the company are all faces right now. There are no credible main event heels on any of the three shows. Edge has been jobbed out repeatedly to the point that he can't even be taken seriously as a main event threat any more and Orton's close in his footsteps. Umaga's got a joke gimmick straight out of the 70s and as such can never be a WWE-champion quality heel either. Raw needs a major turn.

 

Finally, beyond that, Cena's just boring as a face. You can only run the superman champion gimmick so long and Cena's run it into the ground. He needs to do something different with his character. He's already overcome the odds against the whole roster to the point that no one on the roster outside of one face who's been kept away from him is even a viable threat any more. I watched Raw on at least a semi-regular basis for nine years and I quit last fall because Cena dominating the show was becoming so boring. Since it became obvious that Edge was never going to get the title back from Cena, I've watched maybe 1.5 hours of Raw total and I can't be the only one. Cena's driving the intelligent fans away from the product and turning Raw into a Saturday morning cartoon for small children. I'm going to watch Mania basically with the hope that Cena either turns or loses the title, but if he doesn't do one or the other, I can tell you that I won't be back watching Raw in the near future.

[DrVenkman PhD 0]

Cena sells merchandise and the kids love him. He's a top draw, whether people want to boo him or cheer him. Any female I know that watches wrestling is in love with him. Just because hardened smarks in their 20s or older don't want to admit Cena is over and a draw doesn't mean he isn't.

 

The "turn someone that sells a lot of merchandise to shake his character up" idea sure worked well for WWE in 2001 with Austin, so yeah, turn Cena heel!

[Downhome 0]

The Trump/Vince/Austin match is the featured headline on Yahoo right now.

[DrVenkman PhD 0]

I really hope there is a money drop when Lashley wins, as long as no one riots and fights over it. It's Detroit so I think it would be ok and safe to do.

[razazteca 0]

The Trump/Vince/Austin match is the featured headline on Yahoo right now.

So who was the old man that was pushing Vince around?

[Guest robrabies]

But that's part of Cena's character- if you boo him, no skin off his back. He's not like The Rock who needed the cheers of the crowd.

 

That's completely insane. The Rock was actually able to play face or heel and be cheered regardless of which he was playing unless he was in Austin's back yard or facing the return of the biggest legend in the history of the entire business.

[bob_barron 0]

That's not what I meant. The Rock's CHARACTER needed the cheers of the crowd.

[cabbageboy 0]

Here's the entire problem with anything you guys are saying about Cena:

 

1. Regardless of how over or not over he may be, there are still obvious guys on Raw alone that are more over than he is. HBK and HHH for instance. I don't recall those guys getting crapped on during most of their matches in major markets.

 

2. Who gives a shit what teenage girls and little kids think? If you are marketing a wrestling show to teenage girls, then you're in for big problems because they won't stay loyal and will no doubt move on to something else. Even most kids will understand that a guy turning heel is a part of the business and if they are a real fan of the guy they will support him on some level regardless (I felt that way about Bulldog after his god awful heel turn in 1995, but then I was 16 at the time). Whatever $$ they might lose in Cena's merchandise not selling as much--which frankly isn't that huge of a concern, he'll sell shirts anyway--will be offset by the actual improvement in the show itself.

 

3. If Cena sucks as a heel and doesn't get over, he can turn face again easy enough.

 

In other words, WWE needs to collectively be a man, nut up, and turn his ass heel. It would only gain Cena some credibility if he flipped out and told everyone to fuck off. The Austin comparison is absurd, since Austin was, oh I dunno, actually OVER with the crowd and turned heel needlessly. If Cena gets dumped on by the crowd Sunday, that is 2 WMs in a row where he was ill received. The Rock got 2 WMs before he turned heel. What makes Cena any different?

[Guest robrabies]

That's not what I meant. The Rock's CHARACTER needed the cheers of the crowd.

 

The face Rock did...the heel Rock..."well the Rock really doesn't give a damn about what anyone thinks as long as there is _______ for the Rock."

[The Amazing Rando 0]

That's not what I meant. The Rock's CHARACTER needed the cheers of the crowd.

 

The face Rock did...the heel Rock..."well the Rock really doesn't give a damn about what anyone thinks as long as there is CHEESE for the Rock."

 

 

Oh, is this not a mad lib?

[Lil' Bitch 0]

Jesus Christ, the WM XXIII card looks like shit. I can't believe I took the day off work so I could watch this fucking show.

 

*only cares about the double main event at this moment

[bob_barron 0]

I just heard them hyping up the Battle of the Billionaires on the Today Show. That's insane.

 

I remember last year when everyone acted like the WM22 card was the worst thing to ever hit wrestling- and it ended up being a pretty good show

[UZI Suicide 0]

MITB really fucked things up this year. I didn't think it would, even when they pushed it to 8 guys, but looking at the set card it really hurt things. I hope this is the last year of it.

[Thanks for the Fish 0]

Meltzer has said as of a couple of days ago HBK Vs Cena was going to Main Event the show. What does that do to predictions both in the UT vs Batista match and the HBK/Cena match? This would open the door to Batista retaining and would also allow HBK to go over and win the title as well. Does wwe not realize that Detroit is Undertaker country AND Detroit is going to have a fair share of Canadian fans attending (read You Screwed Bret!!)?

 

WWE has room for more matches but choose not to add anymore. MITB only needed to be six wrestlers, and they could have easily left two out to be included in a singles match if they so desired. Now I love epic long matches IF the wrestlers involved can keep me interested. Just because a match is given 20+ minutes doesn't mean it is necessarily a good thing.

[Guest robrabies]

Meltzer has said as of a couple of days ago HBK Vs Cena was going to Main Event the show. What does that do to predictions both in the UT vs Batista match and the HBK/Cena match? This would open the door to Batista retaining and would also allow HBK to go over and win the title as well. Does wwe not realize that Detroit is Undertaker country AND Detroit is going to have a fair share of Canadian fans attending (read You Screwed Bret!!)?

 

WWE has room for more matches but choose not to add anymore. MITB only needed to be six wrestlers, and they could have easily left two out to be included in a singles match if they so desired. Now I love epic long matches IF the wrestlers involved can keep me interested. Just because a match is given 20+ minutes doesn't mean it is necessarily a good thing.

 

Agreed. An Orton-Edge affair similar to their match at Vengeance in '04 would have really helped this card, IMO. They also should have moved Finlay or Booker into the UST spot, and put MVP and Shelton in the MITB match.

[haVoc 0]

From Gerweck...

 

Donald Trump called into Ryan Seacrest's LA based Radio Show on 102.7 KIIS FM this morning. The two talked about Wrestlemania (Ryan, clearly, is not a WWE fan) and who had more money Trump or McMahon. Trump went on to say he and Vince were good friends and that Trump actually wanted to wrestle McMahon but McMahon chickened out and said they'd choose wrestlers. Trump also said that this year's Wrestlemania would be the biggest Wrestlemania ever and alot of that has to do with him being there.

 

Pfft. I hope the crowd verbally rapes Trump and Lashley.

[TheFranchise 0]

Meltzer has said as of a couple of days ago HBK Vs Cena was going to Main Event the show.

 

I know we have always had this discussion since two titles.. but I thought the Rumble winner was gauranteed the ME match?

[Hawk 34 0]

From Gerweck...

 

Donald Trump called into Ryan Seacrest's LA based Radio Show on 102.7 KIIS FM this morning. The two talked about Wrestlemania (Ryan, clearly, is not a WWE fan) and who had more money Trump or McMahon. Trump went on to say he and Vince were good friends and that Trump actually wanted to wrestle McMahon but McMahon chickened out and said they'd choose wrestlers. Trump also said that this year's Wrestlemania would be the biggest Wrestlemania ever and alot of that has to do with him being there.

 

Pfft. I hope the crowd verbally rapes Trump and Lashley.

 

He's right though. This show will probably get a crazy buyrate and you can thank Donald for bringing a huge curiosity factor to this show not to mention the media coverage from ESPN, Today Show, countless radio talk shows and such. Undertaker/Batista, sure as hell isn't doing that.

[DrVenkman PhD 0]

Well Rey's match wasn't the last match last year, which made a friend of mine mad since Rey won the Rumble. I explained that, although it was never explained on television but if anyone asks, because Cena and HHH beat Rey, Angle, and Orton they got to be the main event. Same rule applies this year too (HBK/Cena beat Taker/Batista at No Way Out).

[CanadianGuitarist 0]

Opening pyro/anthem/video buildup

 

Khali goes over Kane. Both blade. Will be bad, but not terrible. * 1/4

 

Benoit over MVP. The match of the night for TSM. Will likely get between 15-20 minutes. ***

 

MITB is won by Kennedy. Finish: Hardys take out, Booker and Finlay with big bump. Edge, who plays chicken heel throughout, is confronted by Orton, they brawl a bit, Punk takes them out (and he'll unquestionably be the star of the match, including:) being taken out with an even bigger bump, allowing the win for Kennedy. The match of the night for the marks, and also about 20 minutes.

 

Ashley wins the broads title. Melina carries her. It'll be so-so, good enough that the Lumberjills won't be the focal point of attention. * 3/4

 

Lashley over Umaga. Rey and Eugene interfere on Vince only. Austin doesn't mind. Vince gets one strip shaved by Trump. Austin finishes the job. Beer celebration. Side note: The mark in me will be ejaculating non-stop for over a month if Umaga wins. I do not have a vasectomy appointment booked tomorrow. ** 1/2

 

Taker over Batista. I'd been telling anyone who'd listen that Batista was going to end the streak. I've come around. Decent match, prolonged entrance for Taker, even longer celebration. And this should be the main event, but Cena HBK gets that spot. **. On the shorter side, say 8-12 minutes.

 

New Breed over Originals. My heart is crushed, and Paul Heyman's a little too. I'm actually wearing an ECW shirt as we speak, that I bought at a TNN taping on Sept. 8, 2000. (I'm unbelievably good with days). Bit of a clusterfuck. * 3/4

 

Cena over Michaels. This will be, for the record, the only time in my life I EVER root for Cena. Yes, that included Trips last year. Michaels brings his workboots (and even as a lifelong hater of him, does he ever not bring them?), and Cena's on top of his game too. ***. HBK shakes his hand afterwards.

 

 

 

 

Cena is not turning anytime soon. Yes, we hate him, but women and children do not, and they buy more t's than we do.

[humanoid92 0]

Meltzer has said as of a couple of days ago HBK Vs Cena was going to Main Event the show. What does that do to predictions both in the UT vs Batista match and the HBK/Cena match? This would open the door to Batista retaining and would also allow HBK to go over and win the title as well. Does wwe not realize that Detroit is Undertaker country AND Detroit is going to have a fair share of Canadian fans attending (read You Screwed Bret!!)?

 

I think it's smart not to put the Taker match on last because it teases a Batista win more. Makes it seem like Batista has more of a chance, but it doesn't necessarily mean he's going over.

 

Other thoughts/observations:

 

"Main event" and "final match" do not necessarily mean the same thing.

 

I'm not seeing a logical opening match for this card. A lot of people are saying it'll be Kane vs. Khali, but I just can't see that. Benoit/MVP is a much better option than Kane/Khali, but it still feels out of place as an opener to me.

 

I agree with whoever said that doing Money in the Bank again this year is a silly idea.

 

As far as turning Cena heel goes, I'm pretty indifferent either way, but my question for those supporting the turn is this. If you turn him, who's the new golden boy that you're pushing as the top face? Not just on Raw but for the company as a whole. Part of the reason the Austin turn failed miserably is because with The Rock leaving, there was no other #1 face to immediately step up as THE guy. So if Cena turns, who becomes THE guy? If your answer is Lashley.... ugh. And I don't really consider Shawn and Taker as possibilities. Of course, they're consistent main eventers, but they kind of have different veteran-type roles these days.

[Hawk 34 0]

I don't know why people think Kane/Khali will open. These shows traditionally start with a mid-card title match or a tag team match (title sometimes included). Just look at the past decade. Only WM14, didn't open with a mid-card title match or a tag match. *While WM21 didn't open with a title match, it did involve two champion mid-carders in a singles match.

 

That format would suggest that MVP-Benoit, would open the show with the expected 18-25 minute match.

 

Kane-Khali is the garbage filler match to place between MitB and B.O.B with the eight man being sandwiched between the promoted main event and the actual main events.

[humanoid92 0]

That format would suggest that MVP-Benoit, would open the show with the expected 18-25 minute match.

 

We're in agreement with Kane/Khali but I don't know how you can expect MVP/Benoit to get 25 minutes if it's opening (or otherwise, really). Using your own logic of going back and looking at the typical formats, Rey/Eddie is the only recent WM opener to get more than 10 minutes and even that was only about 12. I'm referring to actual match time. Not sure if you're accounting for entrances, hype packages, extra-ciricular activities, etc.

[Hawkius Maximus 0]

For everyone saying this is a weak WM card...what do you want? Constant ***** matches? I think some people are being too "smarky" for their own good. Historically, and I know this will shock some people, WM cards...AREN'T that super. The whole purpose of WM is to have the definitive card of the year not to have constant mind blowing matches. There hasn't been a single WM that was top to bottom epic quality work, and I think the term "Wrestlemania Level match" gets thrown around waaaaaaaaaaaaay too much. Every match on this show has an issue, and a reason for taking place. That's the first time that's happened in a loooong time.

 

I fail to see any gaping holes in this card, and I'll do them in order.

 

Kane/Khali: This will be fine. Khali's fun in his way and Kane will likely pinball as best he can for Khali. On top of that, I FULLY expect that chain & hook to be involved in this match to some extent. Either someone is going to be hanged post match, or one of them is going to be stabbed in the head. It's been built up too much to not happen. If UT wasn't allowed to beat Khali, there's no way in hell Kane goes over here. * to ** at best.

 

MVP/Benoit: I fully expect *** or better here. Benoit is...well...Benoit, and MVP is a fine wrestler. I used to mock MVP until I saw him more on SD but not only does he have charisma, he's a good worker who is both good at selling, and has simple credible offense. I expect them to have a solid eight to ten minute match with the promise of far greater matches later on.

 

MITB: I really don't get why some people have called this MITB a weak lineup. This should be the best of the bunch. While someone like Shelton isn't in the match, they threw in both Hardy Boys who more then make up for his exclusion. Booker & Finlay give the match more focus while Edge, Kennedy, Orton and Punk are the only viable winners. This should be a **** ladder match with all kinds of insane spots going on. My pick to win is either Edge or Punk, but any of those four could win it.

 

Lashley/Umaga: This one has gotten ALOT of hate that I've seen, and I don't understand it. Umaga is one of the best workers in the WWE right now. Silly gimmick and everything. He has YET to have a bad main level match, and he's really the most unappreciated wrestler in the WWE. How quickly we all forgot the epic badass match with Cena at the RR. Lashley is limited, and despite his looks he's really not that strong. Lashley has a bodybuilder's body, not a pro-wrestlers and there's a big difference. Since his "strength" is his selling point, it makes him even worse. However, I fully expect this to be COMPLETELY overbooked, and Umaga to completely carry Lashley to the best match of his career. Anything less then *** and I'll be amazed. I'll go out on a limb and predict **** or so.

 

Woman's Title Match: There's really nothing to expect here. Ashley is easily the worst woman WWE has...which is saying something. The question is, what will Melina do to save her job? Will she stiff Ashley in a "fuck it" way, or will she go out there and attempt to pull a Ric Flair and carry a broomstick? Ashley wins, no one really cares, and Melina probably gets fired or depushed severely because I doubt she can work a fucking mirale here.

 

UT/Batista: Having Batista win would be a silly move, and I sincerely doubt it happens. That said, I think this'll be a FINE match. UT really pulls out everything he's got in these situations, and seems to love working with inferior workers. I expect them to have a decent heavyweight match with UT winning convincingly. **1/2 probably, but I wouldn't be surprised to see them work out something better.

 

Cena/Shawn: I saw someone say this'll only be *** at best...Are you KIDDING me? Cena has been fucking fantastic for quite some time in big match situations, and Shawn knows this'll be his final hurrah as a top flight contender. They are going to pull out absolutely everything they possibly can and have an epic final match for WM. This will probably be in the **** or greater range, with anything really being possible. Both men are peaking right now, and this will be a daaaaamn good match. Given how hot this match will be, and what they do in the match, I would NOT be surprised to see them nearly hit *****.

 

So by my calculations, I've predicted THREE **** or better matches, one *** and three below ***. That's a damn good match lineup. Even if you went by the low end of the scale with every match underachieving, there's still NO WAY this show will have less then two *** matches, and several solid matches.

 

After it's all over, provided WWE doesn't royally screw this show up, this WM will go down as one of the best in history.

[Ace Austin 0]

Opening pyro/anthem/video buildup

 

Khali goes over Kane. Both blade. Will be bad, but not terrible. * 1/4

 

Benoit over MVP. The match of the night for TSM. Will likely get between 15-20 minutes. ***

 

MITB is won by Kennedy. Finish: Hardys take out, Booker and Finlay with big bump. Edge, who plays chicken heel throughout, is confronted by Orton, they brawl a bit, Punk takes them out (and he'll unquestionably be the star of the match, including:) being taken out with an even bigger bump, allowing the win for Kennedy. The match of the night for the marks, and also about 20 minutes.

 

Ashley wins the broads title. Melina carries her. It'll be so-so, good enough that the Lumberjills won't be the focal point of attention. * 3/4

 

Lashley over Umaga. Rey and Eugene interfere on Vince only. Austin doesn't mind. Vince gets one strip shaved by Trump. Austin finishes the job. Beer celebration. Side note: The mark in me will be ejaculating non-stop for over a month if Umaga wins. I do not have a vasectomy appointment booked tomorrow. ** 1/2

 

Taker over Batista. I'd been telling anyone who'd listen that Batista was going to end the streak. I've come around. Decent match, prolonged entrance for Taker, even longer celebration. And this should be the main event, but Cena HBK gets that spot. **. On the shorter side, say 8-12 minutes.

 

New Breed over Originals. My heart is crushed, and Paul Heyman's a little too. I'm actually wearing an ECW shirt as we speak, that I bought at a TNN taping on Sept. 8, 2000. (I'm unbelievably good with days). Bit of a clusterfuck. * 3/4

 

Cena over Michaels. This will be, for the record, the only time in my life I EVER root for Cena. Yes, that included Trips last year. Michaels brings his workboots (and even as a lifelong hater of him, does he ever not bring them?), and Cena's on top of his game too. ***. HBK shakes his hand afterwards.

 

 

 

 

Cena is not turning anytime soon. Yes, we hate him, but women and children do not, and they buy more t's than we do.

 

 

I agree with you on the winners of the match but not all of the side details

[Guest Diablo_Dor]

After watching SD I really can't see Batista retaining and I just don't think that Michaels is leaving with the belt on sunday.

Honestly could anyone else believe that the WWE would have BOTH champions be over 40, we know that Batista is that age but the marks don't & anyhoo I still think he's losing.

 

What odds does anyone give me that Trish will be involved in the Lumberjill match to help give Ashley the rub she so DESPERATLEY needs?

Or will Vince believe London & Kendrick are Divas and dump them into the match?

 

This is such a strange event cos right now they need people to start stepping up and I just don't see any future maineventers in the undercard, except Punk, I'm an ROH mark at heart so I can't help it, but lets not forget this isn't his first Wrestlemania & he blotted his copy book last year by making out with his girlfriend in the lobby. Who knew WM was a bloody High Scholl Field Trip? (What would be the penalty for sneaking into the ROH doubleshot I wonder??)

 

Hell I want Jamie Noble on that bloody card too but I understand that good wrestlers aren't allowed to actually wrestle.

 

I used to have monday booked off for this for months in advance but right now I can't justify the price of it as a PPV alone and I'm in Northern Ireland not the US. I'll look forward to picking it up on DVD if it's worthwhile.

 

Enjoy your Sunday night lads and don't forget to give those of us who are too cheap to buy it regular updates of what's happened to whom and howduring the four hours.

[razazteca 0]

Quick Comment: If the Money-in-the-Bank match is being used to elevate the next big thing the same way the King of the Ring and Royal Rumble winners did in the past then it would leave 2 contenders: CM Punk and Mr. Kennedy, Kennedy. Now say what if CM Punk wins where does he go does he go to Raw to chase Cena, Edge, Orton, HBK for the WWE Championship or would he go to Smackdown to chase Batista, Undertaker, Benoit. Now if Mr. Kennedy, Kennedy wins would that mean that he gets to feud with Undertaker and probably win the Big Gold Belt at Summerslam? I would think a win for CM Punk would be more beneficial because it would make him look a superstar and on the same level as the Raw main eventers and this being the "Grandest Stage" for the WWE this would be the perfect opportunity to introduce CM Punk to the general public. Now Mr. Kennedy, Kennedy is as over as he can get and considering the Smackdown roster being a mixture of old guard and newbies learning how to work on tv I would think a person with Kennedy's skills can just do a promo one day demanding a title shot and it would be accepted as credible......not everybody is going to accept CM Punk showing up on Raw demanding a title shot as a true contender. CM Punk has a bigger upside and needs the win more.