NBA Playoffs 2007: Conference Semifinals

[cabbageboy 0]

The Suns are the biggest hope that the NBA has of getting out of the doldrums that the league has been in for the past 9 years. I'm sorry but there's no way most fans are ever going to buy into a league where teams are playing 85-81 games. That is not professional basketball played at a high level. As a kid the original intrigue I had in the NBA is that teams were playing 115-113 games.

 

The league has been intent on cleaning up its off the court image, but really the problem is somewhat that and also the dreary style of play over the past decade until the Suns came along with an exciting style. Truth be told, the Eastern Conf. was headed in that crappy thug direction a long time ago, but this fact was masked by the Jordan Bulls being so awesome. Once you lose Jordan, what do you have? You get the Knicks and Heat thugging it up, the rise of the Pistons again, and the absolute nadir of some tedious 50-32 Nets teams making the Finals.

 

Not only are the Spurs showing a thuggish side, it's not even really marketable. The Spurs are too boring and bland to be an effective antagonist (real heel teams are the Knicks and Pistons). Lushus will hopefully agree with me that one of the best aspects of the league 10-15 years ago were the rivalries that were marketable as a protagonist vs. antagonist series (Bulls/Pistons, Bulls/Knicks, Pacers/Knicks, and so on). While the late 90s/early 2000s series with the Knicks and Heat were amusing on an ironic level, it's hard to find someone to root for there since it's kind of a heel vs. heel matchup that isn't very marketable.

 

What is the NBA's selling point right now? The NFL has the Colts vs. Patriots to captivate fans. MLB still pushes Yankees vs. Red Sox (though I mentioned in another thread that when these teams are gone in the playoffs that marketing hurts the league). What is the NBA's big rivalry right now? There's potential in the Suns vs. Spurs out west, but only if the Suns can finally beat them. There's potential in Pistons vs. Cavs in the east, but only if Cleveland rises about being a JTTS team. Cause otherwise we're stuck with Spurs vs. Pistons again and that will do the league no favors.

[Ripper 0]

You know, even if I didn't like the Spurs, I'd still root for them in this series because... well, fuck the Suns, that's why. I hate their run and shoot style of offense, and never want to see a team that plays like that win anything.

 

 

...

 

And you are a Kings fan? Is some of this left over from that Sacramento team never winning anything?

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

I don't understand why the NBA has to be 120-117 shootouts to be successful. Did people calls the Bears boring when they would win 14-10 because the defense was beating the shit out of the opposition? Are we bored when a baseball game features a pitcher's duel that renders a final score of 2-1? I want to see good basketball and I don't really care what style they play. I liked the '05 Finals because we got the two best teams in a seven game series. I could care less that they were only scoring in the 80s.

 

I don't find the Warriors or Suns to be that much more interesting that other teams, although I do realize I am in the minority on that one. I don't see the appeal of a team jacking up 30 three pointers and hoping they make enough to win the game. What's wrong with half-court offense and solid, shut-down defense?

[Ripper 0]

Why do you hate a team that plays exciting basketball...

Because I don't think it's exciting, that's why.

 

The trend in the NBA is to have 5-7 guys that can all run, shoot, pass and many times play multiple positions.

The Suns don't have 5-7 guys that can run, pass and shoot; they have 7 guys that can run and shoot, and one guy that can pass. I take nothing away from Steve Nash, as he is very good at what he does, but they can't score in the halfcourt if Nash isn't on the floor, and I don't like watching teams that can't score in the halfcourt.

 

And if the rest of the NBA is copying the Suns, well... the Suns are just copying the Don Nelson-coached Mavericks; run to the three-point line, and wait for Nash to pass you the ball. Gag me.

 

And that's all anybody on that team, with the exception of Stoudemire, ever does, run out to the three-point line and wait for Nash to pass them the ball; that's not entertaining to me. I personally think that the three-point shot is the bane of basketball. When I see a team take forty three-point shots in a game (coughwarriorscough), it makes me sick.

 

If it weren't for the Pistons still being alive, I would be rooting for the Suns to win it all just because they play a style that is wonderful to watch for anyone who really knows basketball.

I take great offense at this. I have been watching basketball for twenty-five years, and I consider myself an adequately knowledgeable basketball fan, so I don't appreciate the implication that the fact that I think that the style that the Suns play has anything to do with a lack of basketball acumen on my part.

 

You know, they are near the tops in the league in points in the paint. Most of their buckets are at the rim. The Suns are a pick and roll team that gets out quickly and spreads the floor. you don't shoot that percentage by just running to the three-point line.

[Black Lushus 0]

I tell you what, cabbage...there were times when I thought I was the only one outside of NY that actually liked the Knicks.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

Did people calls the Bears boring when they would win 14-10 because the defense was beating the shit out of the opposition?

 

Yes, which I hated (the people calling them boring).

[Mr. S£im Citrus 0]

You know, even if I didn't like the Spurs, I'd still root for them in this series because... well, fuck the Suns, that's why. I hate their run and shoot style of offense, and never want to see a team that plays like that win anything.

And you are a Kings fan? Is some of this left over from that Sacramento team never winning anything?

Am I being whooshed here? Surely you're not comparing the Princeton offense that the Kings played during their run, where the ball was in constant motion in the halfcourt, where 4-5 guys averaged at least four assists (Webber, Divac, Christie, Miller, Bibby) to the Suns, are you? The Kings were not a running team; hell, aside from Webber, they didn't really have any athletes... they made their money in the halfcourt game.

 

The Suns don't play anything like the Kings did when they were actually contenders, and they never have: throughout the brief (entirely too brief, in my opinion) period that the Kings were relevant in the NBA, which was basically just 2001-2003, the Kings only had two guys averaging more than three 3-pt attempts a game (Stojakovic and Jackson in 01-02, Stojakovic and Christie in 02-03).

 

The Suns have five. Last year, they had six. So I don't know why you would mention the Kings like, if I liked one style, I should like the other, as if they played anything alike. Hell, the Wizards play more like the Kings did than the Suns do.

 

:: doesn't like the Wizards, either ::

[Guest George's Box]

I think the difference between a pitching duel/goaltending duel and its baskeball equivalent is that whereas the first two represent incredible solo efforts, a low-scoring game in basketball is just viewed as a failure of everyone to score. With baseball, hockey, and even football to an extent, we're talking about both sides taking shutouts deep into games, and a zero on the scoreboard is an obvious indicator of a great effort. With the comparative facility of scoring in basketball, shutouts are practically impossible, so there's scoring, just not a lot, and that just looks like an ugly and dull game, and usually IS an ugly and dull game.

[Mr. S£im Citrus 0]

I think the difference between a pitching duel/goaltending duel and its baskeball equivalent is that whereas the first two represent incredible solo efforts, a low-scoring game in basketball is just viewed as a failure of everyone to score...

And to me, that's one hundred percent perception; what you call an incredible solo effort in baseball a "pitching duel," I call a failure to hit, but I actually do consider low scoring games to be, very often, evidence of great defense... and I love to watch great defense. I admit that there are some teams where it's not an accurate indication of defense all the time, and that's because coaches like Jeff Van Gundy and Larry Brown and Rick Carlisle micromanage each offensive possession and choke the life out of the game. And there are teams like New Jersey, that actually can't shoot worth a fuck. But I don't think that that's representative of all low-scoring games. When San Antonio holds teams to low scores, that's not a "failure of everyone to score" that's one team imposing it's will on the other team. When Detroit had that run in 2004 (or was it 2005) where they held, like, fifteen consecutive opponents to sixty-five points or less, that wasn't a failure to score, that was the Pistons imposing their will. I love games like that.

[bobobrazil1984 0]

caught this bit in a steve kerr column:

 

However, if the league decides to suspend Diaw and Stoudemire, it may have to suspend Tim Duncan and Bruce Bowen as well.

 

In a play that went entirely unnoticed until well after the game was over, both Duncan and Bowen actually left San Antonio's bench early in the second quarter after Francisco Elson and James Jones were entangled. Replays clearly show Duncan walking several steps onto the court as Elson and Jones appeared to be ready to get into it. Bowen then followed Duncan onto the floor, grabbed him and led him back to the bench. If the league does indeed follow the letter of the law, both Spurs players would also be suspended for Game 5.

 

I'm gonna laugh my ass off if, after all the talk about how the Suns have to be suspended for the bench thing, if Tim Duncan and Bruce Bowen also get suspended.

[The Robfather 0]

Thank you Robert Horry for destroying the last good series we had in this round.

 

The NBA needs to change the rule and frankly, we the fans are the ones who will really be losing out.

[Ripper 0]

You know, even if I didn't like the Spurs, I'd still root for them in this series because... well, fuck the Suns, that's why. I hate their run and shoot style of offense, and never want to see a team that plays like that win anything.

And you are a Kings fan? Is some of this left over from that Sacramento team never winning anything?

Am I being whooshed here? Surely you're not comparing the Princeton offense that the Kings played during their run, where the ball was in constant motion in the halfcourt, where 4-5 guys averaged at least four assists (Webber, Divac, Christie, Miller, Bibby) to the Suns, are you? The Kings were not a running team; hell, aside from Webber, they didn't really have any athletes... they made their money in the halfcourt game.

 

The Suns don't play anything like the Kings did when they were actually contenders, and they never have: throughout the brief (entirely too brief, in my opinion) period that the Kings were relevant in the NBA, which was basically just 2001-2003, the Kings only had two guys averaging more than three 3-pt attempts a game (Stojakovic and Jackson in 01-02, Stojakovic and Christie in 02-03).

 

The Suns have five. Last year, they had six. So I don't know why you would mention the Kings like, if I liked one style, I should like the other, as if they played anything alike. Hell, the Wizards play more like the Kings did than the Suns do.

 

:: doesn't like the Wizards, either ::

 

 

Saying that ball was in constant motion is a simply not true. The players were, but the ball stayed mostly between the point and the PF (namely Webber and whoever the point was, be it Christie, Bibby or Williams) and they ran stacked screen and rolls just like the suns do(screen and roll, if that doesn't work another one is ran right after it) with peja coming off screens all over the place. They had just as much Webber facing up the defender as Stoudimire facing up the defender, only Amare is more agressive than Chris. Their offense was just a beautiful as the Suns is now. You can keep trying to simplify the suns offense as "Standing around the three point line" but every stat says otherwise. Most of their points come in the paint off of cutting, backdoors and diving to the rim. The Suns are just as potent in the half court as those Kings teams were. (you know, the ones built around a bunch of guys that could shoot a jumper and pass the ball). The Suns have 3 guys averaging over 4 assist(Nash, Diaw, Barbosa), just like the Kings in the 01-02 season(not 4-5 guys). Yeah, the suns took more threes, but really, they shoot better than the kings at the 3. What do you expect?

 

You don't have to run up and down the court to be a uptempo team and those kings teams were definately a uptempo team. Only they weren't as good defensively as the Suns and couldn't shoot as well.

 

And low scoring games is very seldom evidence of great defense. Maybe some pistons games, but look at the amount of shots the "great" defensive team is taking and you see why the game is so low scoring. If one team constantly takes 20 seconds off the shot clock, it is giong to be a low scoring game. That simple. And that can be boring to some (I honestly don't care either way).

[Guest]

I don't find the Warriors or Suns to be that much more interesting that other teams, although I do realize I am in the minority on that one. I don't see the appeal of a team jacking up 30 three pointers and hoping they make enough to win the game. What's wrong with half-court offense and solid, shut-down defense?

I happen to agree with this. The Jazz are my favorite team besides the Lakers to watch in the league. They play a good brand of basketball.

 

I'll take great defense over run-n-gun any day. If I want to watch a 3 point shooting contest, I'll watch college basketball (which I do).

[Guest George's Box]

I just don't find basketball very entertaining. I just want the Bulls to win. I don't particularly enjoy much basketball, but when I do, I'd rather just see them run up and down shooting 3s and stuff. Watching Ginobili pretend to get hurt and Bowen really hurting people isn't compelling television, and this is pretty much the status quo, judging by ratings.

[bob_barron 0]

PHOENIX -- Phoenix center Amare Stoudemire and teammate Boris Diaw have been suspended for one game for leaving the bench after Robert Horry's hard foul of Steve Nash in Game 4 of the Suns' Western Conference semifinal against San Antonio, a person with knowledge of the penalty said Tuesday.

 

Horry was suspended for two games after knocking Nash into the scorer's table with 18 seconds remaining in the Suns' 104-98 victory in San Antonio Monday night that evened the best-of-seven series 2-2, said the person, who sought anonymity because the official announcement had not yet been made.

 

ESPN

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

Two games for Horry? That's a little surprising.

 

Tough break for the Suns, but rules are rules. I don't see tham having much hope in game 5 without Diaw and Stoudemire.

[lomasmoney 0]

Thanks for the backup, Ripper. There is a difference between a great defensive game where everyone is fighting through screens, denying the ball, and playing great team defense and a game like those hideous 2002 Pistons-Celtics playoff games. Like wise, there is a difference between how the Suns play basketball, with the ball movement and what have you, when compared with a team that puts up alot of points but has one or two guys just hoard the ball and jack up a shot. Anyone who actually knows anything about basketball can see the difference, and anyone who knows basketball should appreciate the way the Suns play offensively

[Brett Favre 0]

The NBA is stupid when it comes to this. They messed up once by deciding the series in '97 between NY and Miami, and it seems like they've done it again. Good job.

[godthedog 0]

so who's going to play backup point guard for nash? barbosa?

[Ripper 0]

 

So walking out past the freethrow line after a play in which Elson is jawing with James Jones....fine.

 

Taking two steps off the bench....suspension.

 

Everyone kept saying that the commisioner can't have it both ways. Either suspend Diaw and Stoudimire AND Duncan and Bowen or no one at all. Well the commissioner said fuck you all, I can have it both ways.

 

Bullshit. Rules are rules...unless you are Tim Duncan and a ref threw you out over some bullshit a couple of weeks ago...then you get a pass.

[Brett Favre 0]

It's time to reward those guys who start fights. Nice message sent by the NBA.

[Ripper 0]

so who's going to play backup point guard for nash? barbosa?

 

Jalen Rose? marcus Banks? Who knows.

 

I hope someone steps up really big and the Suns win this game, because there are so many things wrong with a team being rewarded for a dirty play, its ridiculous.

 

I would like to add that when I initially saw the thing, I thought that was Diaw breaking up the fight, but that was actually Barbosa.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

I hope someone steps up really big and the Suns win this game, because there are so many things wrong with a team being rewarded for a dirty play, its ridiculous.

 

I would like to add that when I initially saw the thing, I thought that was Diaw breaking up the fight, but that was actually Barbosa.

How are they being rewarded? Horry got his suspension. Stoudemire and Diaw broke the rules and they have to sit out for it. Kind of hard to feel sorry for them. Should the league just overlook obvious violations because Horry was a dick?

[Brett Favre 0]

The Spurs are being rewarded by Horry's dick antics. If you can't see that, you're blind.

 

This is telling teams to send a goon out there and hope a star player from the other team gets off the bench and takes a few steps on the court.

[Mr. S£im Citrus 0]

Saying that ball was in constant motion is a simply not true. The players were, but the ball stayed mostly between the point and the PF (namely Webber and whoever the point was, be it Christie, Bibby or Williams) and they ran stacked screen and rolls just like the suns do(screen and roll, if that doesn't work another one is ran right after it) with peja coming off screens all over the place.

No, the ball rotated out of the high post from Webber and the low post from Divac. In fact, most of those passes to cutters were coming from Divac and Christie, rather than Webber.

 

The Suns have 3 guys averaging over 4 assist(Nash, Diaw, Barbosa), just like the Kings in the 01-02 season(not 4-5 guys).

:: shrugs :: 3.7 is close enough to four to count, as far as I'm concerned. And I mistakenly included the 03-04 season when I was counting five.

 

You don't have to run up and down the court to be a uptempo team and those kings teams were definately a uptempo team. Only they weren't as good defensively as the Suns and couldn't shoot as well.

Are you talking about the same team that was #1 in the league in opponent's FG%, #1 in the league in opponent's 3pt FG% and top-5 in point differential and defensive efficiency? That team wasn't as good defensively as the Suns? Really? Because the last time I checked, the Suns were 17th in opponent's FG% and 9th in opponent's 3pt FG%.

 

And low scoring games is very seldom evidence of great defense. Maybe some pistons games, but look at the amount of shots the "great" defensive team is taking and you see why the game is so low scoring. If one team constantly takes 20 seconds off the shot clock, it is giong to be a low scoring game...

Didn't I acknowledge that coaches like Carlisle and Brown and Van Gundy micromanage offensive possessions? Because I'm pretty sure I did. I know the difference between good defense and bad offense, thank you very much. And, all things being equal, I'd still rather watch a low-scoring game.

[Just John 0]

I just think that rule needs to be changed. There's nothing inherently wrong with getting off the bench, and players can probably restrain other NBA players better than the wimpy/elderly officials. If a player off the bench continues or escalates the problem, he should receive a harsher penalty than someone on the floor doing the same thing. However, this whole "suspend someone for standing and walking" is stupid.

 

Spurs wind up getting a big break in Game 5, but hopefully they don't need any miracle 3's.

[alfdogg 0]

So...Amare and Diaw get suspended for leaving the bench, but Baron Davis and Jason Richardson are allowed to skate after their dirty plays. Lovely.

[Ripper 0]

I hope someone steps up really big and the Suns win this game, because there are so many things wrong with a team being rewarded for a dirty play, its ridiculous.

 

I would like to add that when I initially saw the thing, I thought that was Diaw breaking up the fight, but that was actually Barbosa.

How are they being rewarded? Horry got his suspension. Stoudemire and Diaw broke the rules and they have to sit out for it. Kind of hard to feel sorry for them. Should the league just overlook obvious violations because Horry was a dick?

 

 

They saw fit to overlook the exact same violations in the 2nd quarter of the same game. You have one play where it was accidental or at least arguably accidental, and on the other side you have a unquestionably dirty play. The Spurs are getting a pass for leaving the bench during the first play and the suns are getting penalized for reacting to the second play. If you want to count steps, duncan and bowen left further from the bench than Diaw(who took 3-4 steps the was turned around) and stoudimire(who took 5-6 steps and then was turned around). So yes, they are rewarding the spurs for a dirty play.

 

And to just pile on, Baron Davis gets a flagrant for a elbow to the head, Bruce Bowen gets a flagrant for kneeing a guy in the crotch and nothing for kicking a guy in the achilles, but these two get suspended for walking. Seriously. You don't see ANYTHING wrong with that?

[Guest]

There's nothing inherently wrong with getting off the bench, and players can probably restrain other NBA players better than the wimpy/elderly officials. If a player off the bench continues or escalates the problem, he should receive a harsher penalty than someone on the floor doing the same thing.

No more judgment call rules. No. Cut and dry is good. You get up, you sit in the next game.

 

Let's not allow the league to make judgment calls on such behavior. They can't call fouls right.

[Guest George's Box]

Hey, don't look now, but the Bulls are up by 20 with about 6 left. That United Center crowd is gonna rock the house on Thursday night.