The Old School questions thread

[JHawk 0]

I'm in the middle of watching WM X right now, and I just finished Savage-Crush, Falls Count Anywhere. What was the deal with the rules? Yes, they're simple enough to understand, getting back to the ring in 60 seconds if pinned outside. But, what would've happened if the pin took place inside the ring? Savage hits a flying elbow. Vince tells him to cover him on commentary, but Savage pushes him outside and covers him there, instead. Vince then remarks that it's a smart move or something. Why? I would assume that a pin in the ring would result in an automatic win.

Had Crush been pinned in the ring, Savage wouldn't have been able to win. It would have counted as though Crush had returned to the ring.

 

That's what I got out of it, at least.

[LessonInMachismo 0]

So did Piper ever get a major televised title match with Hogan when he was a heel during this time?

There is a vs. Piper match on the Hulk Rules DVD from 11/7/85. It is entitled "Wrestlevision." Is this one of the aforementioned matches?

 

It was one of the best Hogan matches I have ever seen.

[MDH257 0]

Yes, it's from The Wrestling Classic.

 

On The Wrestling Classic Home Video there is an introduction from Vince welcoming the fans to the event and saying that this is the first in a series of Wrestlevision events.

 

Meltzer mentioned that Vince had the idea to do monthly ppv's back in Nov. '85. But when The Wrestling Classic didn't do too well, he abandoned the idea.

[Aero 0]

I'm in the middle of watching WM X right now, and I just finished Savage-Crush, Falls Count Anywhere. What was the deal with the rules? Yes, they're simple enough to understand, getting back to the ring in 60 seconds if pinned outside. But, what would've happened if the pin took place inside the ring? Savage hits a flying elbow. Vince tells him to cover him on commentary, but Savage pushes him outside and covers him there, instead. Vince then remarks that it's a smart move or something. Why? I would assume that a pin in the ring would result in an automatic win.

Had Crush been pinned in the ring, Savage wouldn't have been able to win. It would have counted as though Crush had returned to the ring.

 

That's what I got out of it, at least.

I thought of that, but when the name of the match is "Falls Count Anywhere", it kind of contradicts the rules. But, that's probably it, regardless.

[LessonInMachismo 0]

Yes, it's from The Wrestling Classic.

 

On The Wrestling Classic Home Video there is an introduction from Vince welcoming the fans to the event and saying that this is the first in a series of Wrestlevision events.

 

Meltzer mentioned that Vince had the idea to do monthly ppv's back in Nov. '85. But when The Wrestling Classic didn't do too well, he abandoned the idea.

That is the first WWF video I ever saw. I was home from school sick and my mother brought it to me from the rental place. I was amazed at how different it looked from WWF on TV. I started WWF in late '86, and the whole design of the ring and stuff looked so much more professional than on the Classic.

 

I also remember a goofy call when Davey Boy hit the top rope with his crotch and the ref called for the bell.

 

I do not remember the Hogan/Piper match being on the tape, though.

[MDH257 0]

It's in between the second round and semi-finals.

 

I always thought that was stupid because Savage had to go straight from his match with Dynamite to the finals against JYD.

It did provide for some great moments from Jesse. He kept going on about how unfair it was for Savage and that JYD should be forced to do 200 pushups before the match.

I don't know if JYD could have pulled off tht many.

[JoeDirt 0]

My question is about the Wrestlemania 4 tournament. Obviously I know the whole Hogan/Andre/Dibiase angle was done to set the tournament up. But did they ever explain kayfabe-wise why they didn't just give the title back to Hogan or have a rematch at Wrestlemania since Hogan lost the title by such nefarious means? It just seems kind of weird to out of nowhere announce a 14 man tournament after a controversial match between Hogan and Andre.

 

Also, was there any method in who got picked to be in the tournament? For instance, why guys like Dino Bravo and Butch Reed were in, and guys like Hercules, Warrior, Bad News, JYD were not in it?

[cawthon777 0]

The guys in the tournament were deemed the top 12 ranked guys in the company.

 

Bad News just showed up in January. Warrior didn't have any big wins under his belt at that time, at least not enough to be ranked that high. Hercules' push had already scaled off and JYD was almost in the JTTS category.

[LessonInMachismo 0]

My question is about the Wrestlemania 4 tournament. Obviously I know the whole Hogan/Andre/Dibiase angle was done to set the tournament up. But did they ever explain kayfabe-wise why they didn't just give the title back to Hogan or have a rematch at Wrestlemania since Hogan lost the title by such nefarious means? It just seems kind of weird to out of nowhere announce a 14 man tournament after a controversial match between Hogan and Andre.

 

Also, was there any method in who got picked to be in the tournament? For instance, why guys like Dino Bravo and Butch Reed were in, and guys like Hercules, Warrior, Bad News, JYD were not in it?

 

Tunney did one of his proclamations on Superstars, which was repeated on all the other shows. He said that since the three was counted and the bell rang and the title was awarded to Andre, it was his. But Andre got on the mic said he "surrendered" it to DiBiase. Tunney said that surrendering the title to another wrestler was not permissible (obviously). But surrendering the title (standing down as champ) is totally within the rules. Since Andre surrendered the title, he lost it, so it was held up and Andre became the shortest-reigning WWF champ of all time.

 

It makes sense.

 

BTW, that was all going from memory, so if I got any minute details wrong, forgive me.

[Guest wayzing]

The biggest logical gap in this angle (that I still love, btw) was that Tunney looked away from the fact that the pinfall wasn't counted by a sanctioned referee.

[JoeDirt 0]

My question is about the Wrestlemania 4 tournament. Obviously I know the whole Hogan/Andre/Dibiase angle was done to set the tournament up. But did they ever explain kayfabe-wise why they didn't just give the title back to Hogan or have a rematch at Wrestlemania since Hogan lost the title by such nefarious means? It just seems kind of weird to out of nowhere announce a 14 man tournament after a controversial match between Hogan and Andre.

 

Also, was there any method in who got picked to be in the tournament? For instance, why guys like Dino Bravo and Butch Reed were in, and guys like Hercules, Warrior, Bad News, JYD were not in it?

 

Tunney did one of his proclamations on Superstars, which was repeated on all the other shows. He said that since the three was counted and the bell rang and the title was awarded to Andre, it was his. But Andre got on the mic said he "surrendered" it to DiBiase. Tunney said that surrendering the title to another wrestler was not permissible (obviously). But surrendering the title (standing down as champ) is totally within the rules. Since Andre surrendered the title, he lost it, so it was held up and Andre became the shortest-reigning WWF champ of all time.

 

It makes sense.

 

BTW, that was all going from memory, so if I got any minute details wrong, forgive me.

Thanks for the explanation, I appreciate it.

 

This may seem like a dumb question, but why was Hulk Hogan vs. Andre the Giant not done at WM1 or WM2?

[Some Guy 0]

The guys in the tournament were deemed the top 12 ranked guys in the company.

 

Bad News just showed up in January. Warrior didn't have any big wins under his belt at that time, at least not enough to be ranked that high. Hercules' push had already scaled off and JYD was almost in the JTTS category.

Plus Warrior and bad News would have to job and since Warrior didn't end up losing a match until WM 5 and Bad News was being groomed for a title feud with Savage, I doubt they wanted either of them laying down. Hercules was feuding with Warrior at the time they had a match at WM 4. The feud was over a tug of war with Herc's chain, if IIRC, he called out anyone to have a tug of war and Warrior came out and snapped the chain in the process. So Herc was busy jobbing to a guy who they didn't want to job in the tourney. At least that's my take on it.

[deancoles 0]

My question is about the Wrestlemania 4 tournament. Obviously I know the whole Hogan/Andre/Dibiase angle was done to set the tournament up. But did they ever explain kayfabe-wise why they didn't just give the title back to Hogan or have a rematch at Wrestlemania since Hogan lost the title by such nefarious means? It just seems kind of weird to out of nowhere announce a 14 man tournament after a controversial match between Hogan and Andre.

 

Also, was there any method in who got picked to be in the tournament? For instance, why guys like Dino Bravo and Butch Reed were in, and guys like Hercules, Warrior, Bad News, JYD were not in it?

 

Tunney did one of his proclamations on Superstars, which was repeated on all the other shows. He said that since the three was counted and the bell rang and the title was awarded to Andre, it was his. But Andre got on the mic said he "surrendered" it to DiBiase. Tunney said that surrendering the title to another wrestler was not permissible (obviously). But surrendering the title (standing down as champ) is totally within the rules. Since Andre surrendered the title, he lost it, so it was held up and Andre became the shortest-reigning WWF champ of all time.

 

It makes sense.

 

BTW, that was all going from memory, so if I got any minute details wrong, forgive me.

Thanks for the explanation, I appreciate it.

 

This may seem like a dumb question, but why was Hulk Hogan vs. Andre the Giant not done at WM1 or WM2?

WM 1 had the MTV rub and MSG would have sold out easily with any main event.

 

WM 2 needed Hogan at one location, Andre on another and Piper/Mr T/Savage on another.

 

Edit: The Kayfabe reason was that Andre never asked for a Title shot.

[BUTT 0]

What point did WWF start switching to motion graphics for their match ups?

It was the first Smackdown with the new "fist" set, right before Summerslam '01.

I watched Summerslam 01 just two days ago, and there were no motion graphics.

They didn't constantly use the motion graphics. For instance, I recall that they would use them on Smackdown but not on Raw. But I'm 99% sure they debuted them on the Smackdown right before Summerslam 2001, which was the first one with the new set.

 

Here are a couple of questions:

 

1) How and when did Honky Tonk Man return to WWF in '96? I've pinpointed the time to somewhere right after IYH: It's Time, but I don't really remember nor can I find many specifics on how he returned.

 

2) When did the WWF Spotlight TV show air? Was it just on MSG Network?

Did WWF have a Saturday morning show on USA before Mania premiered and what was it called?

When did Superstars and Wrestling Challenge debut? Cawthon's site says Superstars debuted in '86, but TV Tome says '84 (and yes I know Cawthon's site is much more reliable than TV Tome when it comes to WWF programming but hey, I can't be sure about everything)? When did Challenge end? I've read that it ended at the end of the '94/'95 TV season, but I remember some time after Mr. Perfect came back as a commentator in late '95 Dok Hendrix mentioned Perfect as being his "partner on Challenge". Since Challenge wasn't airing in my area at that time I really didn't know what he meant, but did Challenge continue as a clip show throughout that season?

[Some Guy 0]

WWF had a few saturday morning shows on USA. Live Wire was one and it was actually a pretty cool premise and a few years before it's time. They would have wrestlers on the show and take calls. The calls weren't screened or fake so teh guys got asked really kayfabe breaking questions. I remember Russo (as Vic Venom) outing Dok Hendrix as really being Michael PS Hayes. The show was aired live (hence the title) from Titan Towers' TV studio. I really liked it back in late 96-early 97 before I got on the net and they turned it into a higlight show.

 

I don't know when Superstars debuted in syndicationbut it switched to USA in 96.

[BUTT 0]

Oh sorry I meant did WWF have at Saturday Morning Show on USA before Mania? That was a mistake on my part.

[spman 0]

I don't believe so. Traditionally the Saturday show was Superstars which was syndicated from 1984 to 1996 before being switched over to an entirely recap show format and stuck on Sunday Mornigns on USA. In most markets it aired on whatever local independent station was in the area, back before all the independent stations were bught out by FOX, UPN, or WB, usually around 11am or noon time. I know here we got Superstars on Saturday morning at 10am, followed by WCW Worldwide at 11am, and then WMAC Masters along with other American Gladiators rip-offs and Ron Popeil Informercials.

[strummer 0]

a longshot, but does anyone know the deal with Eric Embry killing off WCCW in the early 90s? I was actually a big fan of his when I was a mark, but whenever his name comes up on the net, it's met with disdain, so I'm assuming he was either a bad worker or must have done something to kill the territory. The wrestling magazines in the early 90s also used to kill him, outright saying the fans did not accept him as the top guy for an organization. Any ideas?

[cawthon777 0]

I don't believe so. Traditionally the Saturday show was Superstars which was syndicated from 1984 to 1996

It was 86 to 96. Superstars and Challenge both began the first weekend of September.

 

The difference between those two shows and their predecessors - Championship Wrestling and All Star Wrestling - is that the WWF took the tapings on tour (the tapings used to be in Allentown / Poughkeepsie / Brantford and were done every 3 weeks) and that the production was at a much higher level, probably thanks to what Vince learned from NBC.

[nl5xsk1 0]

a longshot, but does anyone know the deal with Eric Embry killing off WCCW in the early 90s? I was actually a big fan of his when I was a mark, but whenever his name comes up on the net, it's met with disdain, so I'm assuming he was either a bad worker or must have done something to kill the territory. The wrestling magazines in the early 90s also used to kill him, outright saying the fans did not accept him as the top guy for an organization. Any ideas?

This is all just a big guess, but the fact that he pushed himself as the #1 face even though he was a pudgy, short guy with limited charisma (who wasn't terribly over in the first place) probably hurt his standing. Plus, he wasn't a Von Erich and the territory had been VE-dominated forever; not the best situation to be in regardless of him over-pushing himself. Lastly, he was the person that pinned PY Chu-Hi in the match that preceded the name change from WCCW to USWA.

 

So, he basically killed the territory in both kayfabe (the name change) and in reality (by being a non-Von Erich that was supposed to be the #1 face)

[MillenniumMan831 0]

2) When did the WWF Spotlight TV show air?  Was it just on MSG Network?

Don't know exactly when it started but I know it was in syndication and was like a B-Level All American Wrestling. It lasted until at least late 1994 w/ Monsoon hosting it. It featured matches from SuperStars/Challenge w/ an occasional MSG or Raw match sprinkled in here and there.

[spman 0]

WWF Spotlight was another one that was syndicated to a limited number of markets. By the end, it was hosted by Johnny Polo and Gorilla Monsoon. I remember they even ran an angle on the show before WM X, where Polo bet Monsoon that if THe Quebecers lost, he would shave off his goatee, and Monsoon did end up making him get it shaved off.

[cawthon777 0]

WWF Spotlight was another one that was syndicated to a limited number of markets. By the end, it was hosted by Johnny Polo and Gorilla Monsoon.  I remember they even ran an angle on the show before WM X, where Polo bet Monsoon that if THe Quebecers lost, he would shave off his goatee, and Monsoon did end up making him get it shaved off.

You're thinking of All American. The match was the Headshrinkers vs. the Quebecars on "The Countdown to the Crowning" special prior to KOTR 94.

[cawthon777 0]

This may seem like a dumb question, but why was Hulk Hogan vs. Andre the Giant not done at WM1 or WM2?

The major reason, for that timeframe, is that they were both babyface.

 

Vince, as a general rule (though this may have changed since the 80s and 90s), doesn't like babyface vs. babyface because it splits the merchandise sales.

[Some Guy 0]

Andre was turned heel specifically for WM 3. I think was he was getting at was not not do it when Andre was a little younger and more mobile?

 

My guess would be that Vince was holding it off for a huge show and he delivered with WM 3 in the Silverdome. I wonder if they'll ever go back to that building for a WM?

[nl5xsk1 0]

Yeah, having a Hogan-Andre match would have drawn money, but having a Hogan-somebody match and an Andre-somebody match would have drawn better. Andre was basically the #2 face at the time, it'd have been bad business to turn him right then and there.

[spman 0]

WWF Spotlight was another one that was syndicated to a limited number of markets. By the end, it was hosted by Johnny Polo and Gorilla Monsoon.  I remember they even ran an angle on the show before WM X, where Polo bet Monsoon that if THe Quebecers lost, he would shave off his goatee, and Monsoon did end up making him get it shaved off.

You're thinking of All American. The match was the Headshrinkers vs. the Quebecars on "The Countdown to the Crowning" special prior to KOTR 94.

Yeah, you're right, after a while all this stuff just kind of runs together.

[JoeDirt 0]

What was the deal with Goldust jobbing the euro title to Owen in 1998, taking HHH's place? Did HHH have a real injury or was it politics?

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

What was the deal with Goldust jobbing the euro title to Owen in 1998, taking HHH's place? Did HHH have a real injury or was it politics?

Hunter was injured. Though it's a fair bet that politics got him out of doing a clean singles loss to Owen; there was nothing really stopping them having Owen win at least one of their PPV matches in March and April.

[cawthon777 0]

Although Owen did get some revenge by pinning Triple H with the Pedigree at Over the Edge.

 

It was a Pedigree onto the Euro title belt but a Pedigree none the less