Angle-plex 0 Report post Posted July 6, 2004 But the fight scenes didn't have any impact, mainly because Ock wouldn't have given two shits about Spidey if he didn't get the orders from Osbourne. I really didn't get the feeling that Spidey and Ock really hated each other and wanted to beat each other in any of the fight scenes. I got the feeling that Spidey wasn't thrilled with his Aunt being kidnapped and almost murdered. Spidey had a good motives, Ock didn't. If you looks at the film it almost looks like Harry was the main villian and Ock was just hired to do his dirty work. They should have made it all Ock and forget Harry this time around. The Peter Parker parts were great though. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kahran Ramsus 0 Report post Posted July 6, 2004 I saw this on Saturday. It was much better than the first movie. PROS: Better fights/CGI: This was my biggest complaint about the first one. For a big action picture the effects and fight scenes were really crappy. This one is greatly improved. A better villain: The Green Goblin never did anything except kill a few guys who were jerks to begin with. He didn't even show up until halfway through the movie after they did the origin sequence. Plus, he looked like a lame Power Ranger villain. Ock is the most visually exciting character in the comics, something that translated quite well to the screen. He killed people for no real reason. He was simply a bigger threat than the Goblin. Finally, to top it all off, Molina gives a better performance than Dafoe. Dafoe isn't bad, but at times his performance is too unnatural. There wasn't a second that I didn't believe in Molina's performance. It was the best of the movie. More Jameson: The best character in the first movie is neck and neck with Ock as the best character in the sequel. This time he has a whole lot more to do though. He only got three scenes in the first. BAD: I only had one real problem with the film, and it was that at times when something important was going on, they tried to get laughs out of it and it took me out of the film (like the Butch & Sundance tribute). The comedy in this was a lot more forced than in the classic action films like Raiders of the Lost Ark. Spidey had a good motives, Ock didn't. If you looks at the film it almost looks like Harry was the main villian and Ock was just hired to do his dirty work. They should have made it all Ock and forget Harry this time around. I couldn't disagree more. Ock was the one who forced Harry to take the deal, not the other way around. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Exslade ZX 0 Report post Posted July 6, 2004 I just saw it earlier...and basically agree with most. This movie was great, and a lot better then the first. And for some reason...I'm just drawn to the guy that plays Harry. I can't wait to see him as the main villian in the next movie. But of course that's just me, I've seen some say they don't think he can carry a movie as a villian...but I like the guy. Only thing that irked me though..was the ending. The order. I definitely thought the very end should have been Harry finding the costume...not the good ending between Peter and MJ. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest SP-1 Report post Posted July 6, 2004 You know, the people who say the source material should be ignored just need to avoid the franchise altogether in the future. Spider-Man is driven, and always has been by the inner turmoil of Peter Parker and those around. His first love was killed, perhaps by his own fault, he nearly lost MJ in the comics as his wife and companion for good, his uncle died because of a mistake he made in a moment of stupid vengeance. A father figure in his life became the Goblin, his best friend would assume the role. The turmoil of Spider-Man and those around him, and the story of what drives one man to continue fighting and risking all because of the gifts handed him and the responsibility they bring is the driving point of the character. That, and nothing else. Not spider powers, not webbing, not kEwL BattLeZ. Peter Parker's screwed up life. That, and nothing else. Without those elements and the time spent on them, you might as well just give the REAL core Spidey audience the finger for two hours on a large screen while showing the mindless summer moviegoer an hour and fifteen minute battle between a guy with spider powers and Galactus with no satisfactory ending and no rhyme or reason. For the guy who asked: the animated series had the Venom suit come to Earth from space. Either by astronauts coming back from mars on or an asteroid that crashed or something. I'm not sure. I've gotten conflicting answers. The ULTIMATE comics had this: Peter's paretns and Brock's parents were scientists developing a bio-suit aimed at beaing a healing agent for cancer patients. Brock carried on their work in secret and showed Peter some time later in life and the suit wound up being sentient or something and Venom was born. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest SP-1 Report post Posted July 6, 2004 Also: Damaramu, I trust Sam Raimi with this franchise above anyone else. James Cameraon wanted to seriously screw up the core of the character. Raimi respects the character more than anyone else has demonstrated an ability to. The Goblin Suit could have been better, but Normal taking the time to apply a well done face mask or face paint before going out is even more ludicrous than the suit itself. Personally, I'd go for the redesigned Goblin armor from the end of the last PETER PARKER: SPIDER-MAN run, I think designed by artist Humberto Ramos. It would look pretty awesome on film if they could figure out what to do about the face/mask. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scroby 0 Report post Posted July 6, 2004 How did Cameron want to screw up the character? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest SP-1 Report post Posted July 6, 2004 (edited) I don't remember all the details off the top of my head. I'm sure there's someone here that can correct me and/or flesh it out. But from what I recall, Cameron had Peter Parker cursing and basically being a bad mo fo' or some such nonsense. It really wasn't very close to the true character at all. I think he was wearing leather jackets or some crap. Just not Parker. Not Spidey. Edited July 6, 2004 by SpiderPoet Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scroby 0 Report post Posted July 6, 2004 don't remember all the details off the top of my head. I'm sure there's someone here that can correct me and/or flesh it out. But from what I recall, Cameron had Peter Parker cursing and basically being a bad mo fo' or some such nonsense. It really wasn't very close to the true character at all. I think he was wearing leather jackets or some crap. Just not Parker. Not Spidey. Thank God Cameron didn't direct it then, that would have been horrible. I couldn't even imagine that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest SpiderFan Report post Posted July 6, 2004 Some details about Cameron's script: -Pete's organic webs make him feel like a freak, so he invents fake web shooters to convince the public they're not real. Total X-men vibe off this part of the story. -The villians are a business man (Carlton Strand)with the powers of Electro and his lackey (Boyd) with the powers of Sandman. -JJJ is a TV station manager who goes on his Anti-Spidey campaign because the owner (Strand) tells him too. -Pete does a 'mating ritual' to seduce MJ. -Pete beats the holy hell out of Flash and trashes his car after he sees Flash slap MJ. -Spidey says motherfucker to Strand. Some stuff did actually make it through to the 2002 film, such as: -The organic webs (although, thankfully, they didn't play up the mutant factor) -Pete lets Uncle Ben's killer escape becuase he robbed a guy who screwed him out of money -Ben's killed in a carjacking There's a much more indepth look at this Cameron script, and the original Cameron script, which was a piece of shit, here Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Use Your Illusion 0 Report post Posted July 6, 2004 Can a Spidey-fan cover this one for me: Is MJ still alive in the comics? If not, under what circumstances did she meet her demise? UYI Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Secret Agent 0 Report post Posted July 6, 2004 She's alive. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kkktookmybabyaway 0 Report post Posted July 6, 2004 Saw it yesterday. It was OK. I normally don't watch movies in the theater, but this was an exception. I don't think it was as good as many people here thought it was, but I didn't hate it by any stretch of the imagination. I'll get it on DVD when it comes out, too. Most people already mentioned in this thread things that I liked and didn't like, so I won't repeat them (although I will pimp the Evil Dead connections -- Bruce/Operating Room). However, one thing that got on my nerves was the screaming. It seemed whenever there was some kind of action going on that there was a chick screaming and it got on my nerves after a while. That's all. Thank you Drive-Thru... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Black Lushus 0 Report post Posted July 6, 2004 However, one thing that got on my nerves was the screaming. It seemed whenever there was some kind of action going on that there was a chick screaming and it got on my nerves after a while. That's all. Thank you Drive-Thru... no shit man, you thought that too? man that was annoying the hell outta me... anyway, am I the only one who actually likes the Peter Parker story as opposed to the Spider-Man story? in the first one I liked his discovery of his powers and using them on everyday, real-life situations (small time crooks, fires) as opposed to his battles with GG. in the second one, i like how he struggled with all his responsibilities and losing his powers as opposed to battles with Doc Ock, though the train scene was cool, especially how all the New Yorkers kept him from falling off and tried to defend him from Ock... speaking of fires, i suppose in every installment now there will be a fire scene? Dunst has got to go, nuff said there... more JJJ is always good...JK Simmons seems to be gold in almost everything he's in... overall, i'd put it in my top 5 comic movies list, but certainly not number 1...i don't really have a number one, but i've been favoring The Crow for years now... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hank Kingsley 0 Report post Posted July 6, 2004 However, one thing that got on my nerves was the screaming. It seemed whenever there was some kind of action going on that there was a chick screaming and it got on my nerves after a while. That's all. Thank you Drive-Thru... Oh god, that annoyed the hell out of me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kkktookmybabyaway 0 Report post Posted July 6, 2004 anyway, am I the only one who actually likes the Peter Parker story as opposed to the Spider-Man story? I like the PP story, but what pisses me off is that I also really dig the stories of the villians, too, and they don't get more time to develop even more, but c'est la vie -- can't have a 4-hour movie like LOTR. And regarding JJJ, as much as I love his character, I'm content with him being exposed in limited quantities. It just makes the time he's actually on the screen that much better... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Black Lushus 0 Report post Posted July 6, 2004 yeah, Doc Ock's story seemed a little rushed to me...they could have lumped another 20 minutes onto this one, it didn't seem to drag as much as the first one did, especially since we didn't have to go through Spider-Man's origin. more time could have been focused on Ock's origin... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pochorenella 0 Report post Posted July 6, 2004 You know, the people who say the source material should be ignored just need to avoid the franchise altogether in the future. Spider-Man is driven, and always has been by the inner turmoil of Peter Parker and those around. His first love was killed, perhaps by his own fault, he nearly lost MJ in the comics as his wife and companion for good, his uncle died because of a mistake he made in a moment of stupid vengeance. A father figure in his life became the Goblin, his best friend would assume the role. The turmoil of Spider-Man and those around him, and the story of what drives one man to continue fighting and risking all because of the gifts handed him and the responsibility they bring is the driving point of the character. That, and nothing else. Not spider powers, not webbing, not kEwL BattLeZ. Peter Parker's screwed up life. That, and nothing else. Without those elements and the time spent on them, you might as well just give the REAL core Spidey audience the finger for two hours on a large screen while showing the mindless summer moviegoer an hour and fifteen minute battle between a guy with spider powers and Galactus with no satisfactory ending and no rhyme or reason. For the guy who asked: the animated series had the Venom suit come to Earth from space. Either by astronauts coming back from mars on or an asteroid that crashed or something. I'm not sure. I've gotten conflicting answers. The ULTIMATE comics had this: Peter's paretns and Brock's parents were scientists developing a bio-suit aimed at beaing a healing agent for cancer patients. Brock carried on their work in secret and showed Peter some time later in life and the suit wound up being sentient or something and Venom was born. I cannot believe there-s actually people that advocate ignoring the source material. That would be a complete crime and a travesty to the legacy of one of the most beloved characters in the world. Look what happened to Batman on his latter movies, or what's gonna happen to Catwoman. You can't just slap the title of "Spider-Man" to a movie and then make a film about anybody but Peter Parker. He is the true star of the show, not the other way around. And killing off MJ? Ridiculous. Villians I can understand disposing of, but not an important character like MJ. There's no need to turn her into Gwen Stacy. Bottom line, the movie RULED because Raime stayed loyal to the basic concept of the Peter Parker/Spider-Man character, who's been around for 40 years and was portrayed the right way from the very beggining. That's what made him such an enduring character after all this time. There's absolutely no need to tweek him in any way. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Angle-plex 0 Report post Posted July 6, 2004 Spidey had a good motives, Ock didn't. If you looks at the film it almost looks like Harry was the main villian and Ock was just hired to do his dirty work. They should have made it all Ock and forget Harry this time around. I couldn't disagree more. Ock was the one who forced Harry to take the deal, not the other way around. Ock's orginal deal had nothing to do with Spidey. It was only after Harry told him to get him did Ock actually go after Spidey. Ock was getting Spidey for Harry, and after Harry would reward him with what Ock wanted. I call that a henchman. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Boner Kawanger 0 Report post Posted July 6, 2004 Some details about Cameron's script: -Pete's organic webs make him feel like a freak, so he invents fake web shooters to convince the public they're not real. Total X-men vibe off this part of the story. -The villians are a business man (Carlton Strand)with the powers of Electro and his lackey (Boyd) with the powers of Sandman. -JJJ is a TV station manager who goes on his Anti-Spidey campaign because the owner (Strand) tells him too. -Pete does a 'mating ritual' to seduce MJ. -Pete beats the holy hell out of Flash and trashes his car after he sees Flash slap MJ. -Spidey says motherfucker to Strand. Some stuff did actually make it through to the 2002 film, such as: -The organic webs (although, thankfully, they didn't play up the mutant factor) -Pete lets Uncle Ben's killer escape becuase he robbed a guy who screwed him out of money -Ben's killed in a carjacking There's a much more indepth look at this Cameron script, and the original Cameron script, which was a piece of shit, here -At the end of one of his treatments (I'm not going to read them again, so I don't know if it's the one you linked to), Mary Jane goes to the bathroom and gives birth to an eggsack. Fuck James Cameron. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pochorenella 0 Report post Posted July 6, 2004 That's the most idiotic thing I've ever heard. I love T2, True Lies, Abyss, but this is unforgivable. Fuck him, indeed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mrnoitaull 0 Report post Posted July 6, 2004 Saw it yesterday, Loved it Loved the fact they brought Bruce Campbell back Anyone notice Stan Lee's return, if not he moved someone form from falling debris sometime in the movie I even marked for Dafoe's skitzo return!!! 5/5 for me Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kahran Ramsus 0 Report post Posted July 7, 2004 Spidey had a good motives, Ock didn't. If you looks at the film it almost looks like Harry was the main villian and Ock was just hired to do his dirty work. They should have made it all Ock and forget Harry this time around. I couldn't disagree more. Ock was the one who forced Harry to take the deal, not the other way around. Ock's orginal deal had nothing to do with Spidey. It was only after Harry told him to get him did Ock actually go after Spidey. Ock was getting Spidey for Harry, and after Harry would reward him with what Ock wanted. I call that a henchman. But Ock initiated the deal. It wasn't Harry who went after Ock. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlackFlagg 0 Report post Posted July 7, 2004 Spidey had a good motives, Ock didn't. If you looks at the film it almost looks like Harry was the main villian and Ock was just hired to do his dirty work. They should have made it all Ock and forget Harry this time around. I couldn't disagree more. Ock was the one who forced Harry to take the deal, not the other way around. Ock's orginal deal had nothing to do with Spidey. It was only after Harry told him to get him did Ock actually go after Spidey. Ock was getting Spidey for Harry, and after Harry would reward him with what Ock wanted. I call that a henchman. But Ock initiated the deal. It wasn't Harry who went after Ock. Ock just wanted Harry to give him what he needed for his experiment...Harry took advantage of the situation, Ock probably only went along with it as he saw that taking Spider-Man out would be good for him as well. I'm sure if he wanted he could have persuaded Harry to just give him what he wanted if he didn't want to go along with it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kahran Ramsus 0 Report post Posted July 7, 2004 That too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest SP-1 Report post Posted July 7, 2004 I think that the dynamic of the Harry/Ock deal was intentional. Ock wasn't supposed to be a straight up evil villain. That he is deep down a decent guy who goes astray is part of the point, IMO. This goes along with the "Peter's dark side" approach that someone mentioned earlier. Plus, it shows us the beginning of Harry's true downfall. For the purposes of the story as a whole, including what is to come, I think the Ock/Harry "deal" was handled well. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Angle-plex 0 Report post Posted July 7, 2004 It was good for the story as a whole, but I think it took away from the Spidey/Ock fight scenes in this movie since Ock didn't really have a deep hatred for Spiderman. A better scenario might have been Ock blaming Spidey for the experiment gone wrong, which he would force himself to believe after the blast gives him brain damage, just like the comic. The setup for the next movie wouldn't have been as good, but Spidey 2 shouldn't just be a setup for Spidey 3 either. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest TheZsaszHorsemen Report post Posted July 9, 2004 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrVenkman PhD 0 Report post Posted July 9, 2004 Disclaimer: Rape is a serious problem in our society and is not approved by DrVenkman. With that in mind, continue your enjoyment of the comic. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tawren 0 Report post Posted July 11, 2004 Saw the movie opening night and twice throughout last week (been away, so I didn't post this, of course) and absolutely love it still. Aside from the order of the ending, I don't know if I'd change anything. I think they'll go with John Jameson as Venom. He already has a reason to hate Peter, and now they just need to find a way to have him hate Spidey. Maybe his dad gets to him, or Jameson comes back from a space mission with the symbiote and while saving the ship Spidey gets the symbiote attached? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iggymcfly 0 Report post Posted July 13, 2004 Well, I finally saw the movie today. I'm not much of a comics fan, and I thought the first one was pretty average, so I wasn't expecting too much. That being said, when I did see the movie I was blown away. The story was great, the action scenes were great, and every thing was packaged so tightly together that it didn't drag once. I don't usually give out **** ratings to action movies, but I think this time, I might have to make an exception. The mistake most commonly made with movies like this is they get so carried away with their ability to do cool action scenes that they think those are sufficient to make the movie interesting on their own, and neglect to make the story or characters interesting. I thought this really hurt the final LOTR movie (which just might be the most overrated movie ever), and in a movie like Highlander, it becomes just intolerable. However, Spiderman 2 stayed far away from this, as while the action scenes were awesome, they were all well within the context of extremely complex and interesting characters. Tobey Maguire did an awesome job, and you really started to feel for him when he couldn't get a paycheck at work or pay his rent. As for the complaints about the ending, killing Mary Jane off at this point would have been a terrible idea. First off, if you are going to kill her, the time to do it would be the next movie since Peter has (up to this point) been doing everything he could to protect her. He's finally letting her take the risk of being his girlfriend, so if she dies, it should be as a result of that decision. Also, they've already spent two movies with her being kept away from Peter by other men. They need to have a little bit of time in a happy relationship before she is killed by a villain. All in all, it was an excellent movie and I really don't have any complaints. It was light years ahead of the first one, and my expectations. Seeing how well the third one has been set up already, I think we might have a winning franchise on our hands. Of course, by the time they get to a fourth one, they'll screw everything up, but what can you do. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
