Bonds, steroids, you know the drill

[Bored]

The Spring Training might get side tracked so I figured this get it's own thread.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2358236

 

So anyhoo the two San Francisco Chronicle writers who first broke the BALCO story have finally released their book documenting Bonds steroids use. Have at it kids.

 

My two very eloquent thoughts are, 1) If you still think Barry Bonds didn't take steroids you're a fucking idiot, 2) If you think Barry Bonds should be kept out of the Hall of Fame you're a fucking idiot.

[Guest]

I think he took them, but I don't think it's to the extent that's it's going to be displayed as in the book.

[Guest Princess Leena]

No need for this book. Especially since Bonds already admitted he used steroids, although "unknowingly". Because he just likes rubbing creams and whatever on his body for the fun of it.

 

And I'm an idiot for disagreeing with #2. IMO, if you're caught cheating, your stats should be null and void. Especially in a sport like baseball, where stats are so important.

[jimmy no nose]

I'm sure a lot of the book will be factual, but you have to take into account that a lot of the information is provided by his former mistress, so it's not the most credible source. I doubt there will ever be hard evidence against Barry that can justify keeping him out of the Hall.

[EVIL~! alkeiper]

No need for this book. Especially since Bonds already admitted he used steroids, although "unknowingly". Because he just likes rubbing creams and whatever on his body for the fun of it.

 

And I'm an idiot for disagreeing with #2. IMO, if you're caught cheating, your stats should be null and void. Especially in a sport like baseball, where stats are so important.

You can asterik stats, but you can't erase them. Baseball's a zero sum game where one success is marked as a failure of another. If we wipe out Bonds' RBIs, that messes with team totals, opponents' records, and a host of other problems in the accounting. Plus, why do we target Bonds and not anyone else? Do we erase the records of any minor leaguers or scrubs we catch? It's a shaky road to walk down.

[Guest Princess Leena]

Target everyone who did. Doesn't matter if it's Rey Sanchez or Jason Giambi. I can see the huge problems it would cause for other players' stats, and such... but, meh. That's going too far into it.

[Hektik]

I'm sure a lot of the book will be factual, but you have to take into account that a lot of the information is provided by his former mistress, so it's not the most credible source. I doubt there will ever be hard evidence against Barry that can justify keeping him out of the Hall.

Supposedly the mistress has audio tapes of Bonds. The publishers lawyers would have never allowed them to release this book if they didn't have damn good evidence.

[Guest]

They do?

[Mik]

Bill Plaschke made an amazing point on ATH today (I know - I'm as shocked as you were)

 

The two guys who wrote the book also write for the SF Chronicle. If they knew all of this - why didn't they put it in the paper? Did it not meet the standards? They are on record saying they both wanted the Pulitzer for their work on this story - so I'm not so sure it boils down to just money.

 

Obviously - Bonds was up to something but I'm betting that a good deal of this book is treading in the fiction territory or quasi-fiction at best.

[Dogbert]

Should we really be surprised at the revelation that a resident of San Francisco takes it in the ass?

[2GOLD]

The asterik should never be used again. Ever. It was horrible enough when they did it to Maris. If you don't want the guy in and you don't want his numbers recognized, then erase all the stats of the period to ease your mind. You can't just say, "Bonds, Sosa, and McGwire's numbers are to be removed cause we sorta kinda think they used roids". If you want them out, you remove everyone.

 

Wipe them all clear, from 1998 till 2005. Otherwise, leave the asterik and everything else at home. Either put them in and let the stats go or keep them out and erase everyone from the era. The asterik was a weak answer the first time and it's still a weak answer now.

[C Dubya 04]

I think that the real question is how far under a rock Selig will crawl to distance himself from the story.

[kkktookmybabyaway]

Hahaha -- Fuck you Barry. Too bad you're kid is in school because now you can't use him as a media shield. Bitch.

[BruiserKC]

The asterik should never be used again. Ever. It was horrible enough when they did it to Maris. If you don't want the guy in and you don't want his numbers recognized, then erase all the stats of the period to ease your mind. You can't just say, "Bonds, Sosa, and McGwire's numbers are to be removed cause we sorta kinda think they used roids". If you want them out, you remove everyone.

 

Wipe them all clear, from 1998 till 2005. Otherwise, leave the asterik and everything else at home. Either put them in and let the stats go or keep them out and erase everyone from the era. The asterik was a weak answer the first time and it's still a weak answer now.

 

The asterisk was retarded at the time of Maris because Ford Frick (the then commish of baseball) was a huge Babe Ruth guy and it was about obtaining the record in a slightly longer season.

 

Of Bonds, Sosa, and McGwire, if it wasn't for roids (It's obvious Bonds took them, look at how his numbers skyrocketed at an age where most numbers go down) Bonds would be the only one still in the HOF. He didn't need to roid up to get in.

 

If it can be proved, ban them from the HOF. You can't wipe out their records, but ban them from entering the HOF.

[Kaertos]

I feel ike he should be given the Pete Rose treatment. Ban him from baseball, kick him to the curb. Let his stats stand, but make it clear that baseball does not condone what he did.

 

I feel the same for anyone prven to be using steroids. This "let them stay in the game" crap has to go. Of course, the Player's Union will never agree to it, so it will never happen. Then again, I don't think Barry is a member of the Union...

[Guest Princess Leena]

The two guys who wrote the book also write for the SF Chronicle. If they knew all of this - why didn't they put it in the paper? Did it not meet the standards? They are on record saying they both wanted the Pulitzer for their work on this story - so I'm not so sure it boils down to just money.

 

Whatever it is... I'm sure it's not coincidence that this book comes out right before Bonds starts his march towards Babe's HR record.

[dh86]

No need for this book. Especially since Bonds already admitted he used steroids, although "unknowingly". Because he just likes rubbing creams and whatever on his body for the fun of it.

 

And I'm an idiot for disagreeing with #2. IMO, if you're caught cheating, your stats should be null and void. Especially in a sport like baseball, where stats are so important.

 

caught?

[The Man in Blak]

My guess is that the publisher's lawyers felt a little more comfortable with the material than the Chronicle did.

 

And can somebody clear up Bonds' union status? I thought he wasn't a member of the Player's Association, but that's different than the union, correct?

[dh86]

The asterik should never be used again. Ever. It was horrible enough when they did it to Maris. If you don't want the guy in and you don't want his numbers recognized, then erase all the stats of the period to ease your mind. You can't just say, "Bonds, Sosa, and McGwire's numbers are to be removed cause we sorta kinda think they used roids". If you want them out, you remove everyone.

 

Wipe them all clear, from 1998 till 2005. Otherwise, leave the asterik and everything else at home. Either put them in and let the stats go or keep them out and erase everyone from the era. The asterik was a weak answer the first time and it's still a weak answer now.

 

I agree..u dont just point out Bonds,McGwire or Palmeiro..if u wanna wipe anything clean..wipe out the entire era or leave it the way it is and let current testing run its course for the future..Barry Bonds was a multi time MVP prior to the "steroid era"..you also cant prove when guys started using steroids

[dh86]

My guess is that the publisher's lawyers felt a little more comfortable with the material than the Chronicle did.

 

And can somebody clear up Bonds' union status? I thought he wasn't a member of the Player's Association, but that's different than the union, correct?

 

he is in the union, just has his own licensing deals with video games and the like

[Cheech Tremendous]

No need for this book. Especially since Bonds already admitted he used steroids, although "unknowingly". Because he just likes rubbing creams and whatever on his body for the fun of it.

 

And I'm an idiot for disagreeing with #2. IMO, if you're caught cheating, your stats should be null and void. Especially in a sport like baseball, where stats are so important.

 

caught?

 

Yes he was caught. The authors of this book have uncovered a paper trail extending back seven years fully documenting what he took, where he got them from, how much he paid and what sort of schedule he took them on. There are taped phone conversations with Bonds himself on them. What more do you need? This is not just hearsay and circumstantial evidence, there is hardline proof that Bonds was using steroids in a timeframe where he broke the HR record and accumulated 300+ homers.

[dh86]

No need for this book. Especially since Bonds already admitted he used steroids, although "unknowingly". Because he just likes rubbing creams and whatever on his body for the fun of it.

 

And I'm an idiot for disagreeing with #2. IMO, if you're caught cheating, your stats should be null and void. Especially in a sport like baseball, where stats are so important.

 

caught?

 

Yes he was caught. The authors of this book have uncovered a paper trail extending back seven years fully documenting what he took, where he got them from, how much he paid and what sort of schedule he took them on. There are taped phone conversations with Bonds himself on them. What more do you need? This is not just hearsay and circumstantial evidence, there is hardline proof that Bonds was using steroids in a timeframe where he broke the HR record and accumulated 300+ homers.

 

of course he used steroids....but it isnt considered 'caught' if it were not illegal in baseball...thats just like your job banning caffiene pills today and firing you for using them in the past....the only hall of fame caliber player you can make a case for in terms of eliminating his career is Rafael Palmeiro with his testing positive and even with that...I would vote for McGwire,Sosa,Bonds, and Palmeiro

[The Czech Republic]

First of all, stop hurting English. Second of all, it isn't like caffeine pills. Anabolic steroids are schedule III, so they're illegal to possess and use without a prescription. If it's against the law, and it can be proven that Bonds illegally obtained his roids during his tenure in the majors, I don't see why baseball can't give him an asterisk, at least from '98 on.

[Guest Princess Leena]

Steroids were banned by baseball in '98, also. They were part of the illegal federal drugs list.

[Guest StylesMark]

But if there isn't a positive drug test, can they really do that? That's the question. And this is coming from someone who didn't want to see Babe's record broken.

[The Man in Blak]

If the documented evidence in the book is as airtight as the initial impressions make it out to be, then it may have enough weight to be used for federal perjury charges against Bonds, let alone anything related to baseball.

[The Man in Blak]

No need for this book. Especially since Bonds already admitted he used steroids, although "unknowingly". Because he just likes rubbing creams and whatever on his body for the fun of it.

 

And I'm an idiot for disagreeing with #2. IMO, if you're caught cheating, your stats should be null and void. Especially in a sport like baseball, where stats are so important.

You can asterik stats, but you can't erase them. Baseball's a zero sum game where one success is marked as a failure of another. If we wipe out Bonds' RBIs, that messes with team totals, opponents' records, and a host of other problems in the accounting. Plus, why do we target Bonds and not anyone else? Do we erase the records of any minor leaguers or scrubs we catch? It's a shaky road to walk down.

 

There is a precedent set for this in sports, within college basketball. Michigan had to "vacate" past victories when it was busted for booster payments in the 90's - how exactly did they tidy up the record book for that?

 

Not that I'm saying erase Bonds' home runs entirely - I'm just curious how they dealt with Michigan in that case. Personally, I don't think baseball should erase his entire season, but baseball can choose not to recognize it (if it was achieved through illegal means) and, furthermore, they can revoke his individual awards (MVP) that year and either allow the writers to vote again or simply give them to the second place vote recipient. The latter would mean that MVPs would go to Albert Pujols, Sammy Sosa, and Adrian Beltre.

[jwpeer]

Baseball can't and shouldn't do a damned thing.

 

Performance enhancing substances were not illegal in baseball when barry bonds or -anyone- else was using them, so why would you punish someone now for something that was permitted.

 

Say they made drinking alcohol illegal again, and they found out you did it yesterday, and went to arrest you because you did something that's illegal now, in the past.

 

 

i find it ridiculous that people even entertain the idea that he should be punished. all your favorite players for the last 70-80 years have been taking amphetamines when they needed a boost, and there's no way to determine just how many/exactly who, so why not assume they all were and totally reset the record books, period.

 

But not really, because they were part of the game. What about stuff like tommy john surgery, in a way that's bio-modification, you're moving tendons around. Why doesn't someone get 3 or 4 tendons moved into their arm, or have their muscles/skeleton redsigned so they can pitch 99 mph as much as they want with no wear. It's not illegal or against the rules, and who knows how soon it may happen...but it will, and that's even harder to police.

[MrRant]

That last example is really weak as it's not possible.

 

Barry has more problems with the Feds coming after his ass.

[Cheech Tremendous]

To those making the argument that steroids were not illegal so you can't punish Bonds, please STOP. Steroids were illegal in baseball during this time frame, they just weren't being tested for. The collective bargaining agreement specifically bans all illegal substances, and last time I checked, steroids were illlegal.