NBA Roundtable Discussion

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

I tend to agree with Slim Citrus on this, even though I recognize and understand Ripper's larger point regarding the success of draft picks in general. When you have the pedigree to skip college altogether and become a lottery pick, I expect more out of your career than bouncing around the league and being just good enough to crack a rotation. Guys like Kwame, Telfair and D Miles are failures of the system.

[Ripper 0]

By my totally biased, completely subjective criteria, I consider any high-schooler taken after 2000 a bust except for the following:

 

Lebron James

Dwight Howard

Tyson Chandler

Eddy Curry

Al Jefferson

Josh Smith

Monta Ellis

Amare Stoudimire

JR Smith

Deshawn Stevenson

 

 

 

And, while the following may be busts, too, I'm willing to give these guys a pass because they haven't met my own personal "Rule of Three (years)" criteria:

 

Martell Webster

Andrew Bynum

Gerald Green

CJ Miles

Andray Blatche

Amir Johnson

 

Kwame Brown and Darius Miles I declare to be busts by virtue of draft status. Darius Miles has, to this point in his career, the eighth-worst scoring average of any Top-3 pick since the inception of the lottery... And two of the guys that have lower scoring averages (Chandler, Milicic) are at least in the Top-15 in at least one other category... And Kwame? I'll be very interested in hearing your argument for why he isn't a bust... we're talking about a guy who, to this point in his career, is easily one of the worst Number-One picks of all time, at least statistically speaking. Hell, he's the worst number-one pick since LaRue Martin (even worse than Kandi and Pervis, statistically). By exactly what standard is he not a bust?

 

Well in Kwames instance, the only reason he is a "bust" is that he was the number one overall pick in a draft where no player deserved to be the number one pick(honestly go back and tell me who you could honestly say was worthy of that pick). He is a servicable NBA player and contributor and starter on a playoff team.

 

And going by your list you have counted these guys as bust that I didn't:

 

Travis Outlaw: Has simply been the victim of player showcasing in Portland. Numbers toward the end of the year for the last couple of seasons have been very strong(after they were done showcasing trade bait), management considered him a priority to resign, increased his numbers every year, should be averaging double figures this year.

 

Kendrick Perkins: Split time at Center with Mark Blount last year, still avearged almost 2 blocks per game with only 17 minutes per night. Will be the starting Center for the Celtics this year, when he got big minutes, he got big results. Expect more of the same this year.

 

Shaun Livingston: Been injured but that is just about the only knock you can only have on this guy. I don't see how you could say he is a bust.

 

Dorell Wright - When Pat Riley said he and Dwayne Wade are the future of this team, he wasn't blowin smoke up the medias ass. Put up pretty good numbers in limited minutes last year, will probably be more of a priority this year with Posey and Walker gone.

 

Louis Williams - Can't see how this kid is a bust. They just haven't played him. Has been dominant in the NBDL, summer leagues and preseasons as a scoring guard. He was behind AI and now behind Andre Miller. Just hasn't seen that much PT in his past two years

 

Andray Blatche - Again, hasn't seen much PT, but there is a reason he was able to get that money this season. Another case of grooming future talent.

 

Kwame Brown - If you take his draft position into account, then yeah, bust. If you are saying bust as a NBA player, then I will say no. Serviceable big man.

 

Darius Miles - Averaged 17 points and 5 rebounds and a block as a starter last year before the knee ended his year. Averaged 15 points and 6 rebounds as a starter the year before. Is he injury prone? Yeah. But when the guy plays minutes, he is very very productive. His injured games skew his stats alot. He will have 10 games in a season where he will play 2 minutes and have no points and throw off his average. Check out his splits. The guy is no bust. Worse case scenario, he is averaging double figures for his career.

 

Desagna Diop - I don't see how you call this guy a bust unless you are counting his draft position against him.

 

I think difference between you and I is that you seem to count people as a bust if they aren't all star level or big time stat guys while I don't care about stats. Their addition to their team, and how they play their role is what matters to me. Ed Obannon is a bust. you are counting guys that not only have made it in the NBA but have repeatedly justified their existance. Guys like Outlaw and Williams are obviously NBA players that are still in the early phases of long careers like McGrady and Jermaine O'Neil were at one time.

 

Rodney White, Kirk Haston, Michael Bradley, Joe Forte, Reese Gaines, Troy Bell, Dahntay Jones, Rafael Araújo, Luke Jackson, Pavel Podkolzine, Yaroslav Korolev, Julius Hodge, those guys, those are bust.

 

And to the people that keep counting Telfair. Why? Once again, he had one bad year in Boston, but he was a decent point guard in Portland although he was having to split time with Jack. I mean seriously, he average 10 and 4 his second year in the League with only 24 minutes a game. Those are bust numbers. Those shooting percentages are horrible, but at the same time, look at Jason Kidds his first 3-4 years in the league.

[Rendclaw 0]

Rip, you make good points, and I am going to just have to agree to disagree. Most of the average players who came out of high school could have used two years to improve themselves (not to mention a couple of the higher echelon players), but for one reason or another (most of them financial), they busted out. I don;t fault most of them for that.

 

Telfair is more of a bust because of all the hype surrounding since like eighth grade. He was overhyped and definitely overrated as a player. Jason Kidd could do everything but shoot when he came out of Cal. It took him a long ass time to develop a remotely consistent shot from 18 feet or more. He had a lot more talent than Telfair does coming out of high school. If anything that makes my argument for me. Kidd for all his skills, I doubt he would have been a better pro if he came into the league from high school.

[AboveAverage484 0]

Kind of unrelated to the current discussion, but tell me what you guys think of my fantasy squad.

 

Jason Kidd

Michael Redd

Josh Howard

Richard Jefferson

Pau Gasol

Mehmet Okur

Tyson Chandler

Andris Biedrins

Cuttino Mobley

Grant Hill

Travis Outlaw

Marvin Williams

Dorrell Wright (I waived him after the draft to pick up Walter Herrmann)

 

Only knock I have is that I don't have a backup for Kidd in case he goes down. I'll just deal with that if it comes, because I got some pretty good point guards off of waivers last year (Delonte West, Rajon Rondo, coincidentally both Celts). After having a horrible time with centers last year (at least Gasol came through for me when he got healthy), I picked up four great picks at that position this year.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

Sort lof lost in all the recent Kobe discussion is the fact that the Bulls failed to sign Luol Deng or Ben Gordon to extensions before the October 31st deadline. Both will be restricted free agents next summer and will cost the Bulls a lot of money.

[Brett Favre 0]

Both would've been going to LA had it not been for Kobe "trade me but only for scrubs so I can play with mad good players" Bryant.

[Guest]

Looks to me like the Bulls got caught thinking about Kobe. Now they'll be lucky to wind up with one of the three players intertwined in these trade talks. I feel bad for the Bulls, though. They're being played.

[Steviekick 0]

I feel bad for the Bulls to an extent, but they really should have been paying more attention to their own team than the Kobe drama.

[Maztinho 0]

I feel bad for the Bulls to an extent, but they really should have been paying more attention to their own team than the Kobe drama.

 

Trying avoid the Kobe drama is like going outside and avoiding the sun.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

I feel bad for the Bulls to an extent, but they really should have been paying more attention to their own team than the Kobe drama.

 

Well, they offered contracts to both guys. They just weren't able to come to terms. Deng turned down 5 years, $50 million.

[alfdogg 0]

The Kevin Martin deal is what's ruining all these extension talks. This was even mentioned on one of the sites, that Andre Igoudala's camp wasn't going to accept a deal for less than what Martin was making. I would assume that's part of the thinking with Deng and Gordon, as well. Nothing against Martin, but I think those three are worth whatever money he makes. Josh Smith, as well.

[Guest]

Gerald Green is going to become an unrestricted free agent this summer. There are a lot of teams that should be ALL over that. The T-Wolves among them, but, you know, they're the T-Wolves. Why they would let him go, I have absolutely no idea.

[Ripper 0]

The Kevin Martin deal is what's ruining all these extension talks. This was even mentioned on one of the sites, that Andre Igoudala's camp wasn't going to accept a deal for less than what Martin was making. I would assume that's part of the thinking with Deng and Gordon, as well. Nothing against Martin, but I think those three are worth whatever money he makes. Josh Smith, as well.

 

 

Yeah, but comeon, Kevin Martin or not, You aren't telling me that Deng wouldn't get more than 10 per in the open market. And there are some reports that Atlanta would budge off of 45 for 5 years for Josh Smith. They are obviously smoking crack if they think half the league wouldn't offer 10+ for him.

[Ripper 0]

Gerald Green is going to become an unrestricted free agent this summer. There are a lot of teams that should be ALL over that. The T-Wolves among them, but, you know, they're the T-Wolves. Why they would let him go, I have absolutely no idea.

 

I like Gerald Green. I really do. But he has absolutely no idea how to play basketball. At all. He has a great perimeter shot, and can score in bunches, but I have never seen a guy so lost on a court in my life. He plays hard, but he just seems like he has no idea what he is doing. And that is with three years of constant coaching year round. I think the best role for Green would be superstar on a really bad team. He would average like 27 a game, his team would be in the lottery every year and everyone would say "If they would only get Gerald Green some help" and completely forget that he is in this position because he can't play basketball.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

The Kevin Martin deal is what's ruining all these extension talks. This was even mentioned on one of the sites, that Andre Igoudala's camp wasn't going to accept a deal for less than what Martin was making. I would assume that's part of the thinking with Deng and Gordon, as well. Nothing against Martin, but I think those three are worth whatever money he makes. Josh Smith, as well.

 

 

Yeah, but comeon, Kevin Martin or not, You aren't telling me that Deng wouldn't get more than 10 per in the open market. And there are some reports that Atlanta would budge off of 45 for 5 years for Josh Smith. They are obviously smoking crack if they think half the league wouldn't offer 10+ for him.

 

 

Emeka Okafor turned down $13 million a year from the Bobcats. I don't know if it will mean anything in the long run, but I like that teams are attempting to become fiscally responsible. Without market forces to drive these player contracts, every guy wants a little more than what the last comparable player got. It's not healthy for the league. Ultimately, it's just another downside to the NBA's ridiculous salary cap.

 

Oh, and as far as Kobe trade rumors go, Chad Ford had the best proposal:

 

Ben Gordon and Shawn Marion to the Lakers

Ty Thomas and Joakim Noah to the Suns

Kobe Bryant to the Bulls

 

That makes sense from a salary and talent standpint. Why is it that GMs have to make things so difficult when there are easy solutions out there?

[Brett Favre 0]

That doesn't make sense from a salary standpoint.

 

And the Bulls only give up those 3 for Kobe? And the Suns get a rookie and a 2nd year player for Marion? Hell nah! Chad Ford sucks. He's always pulling trades out of his ass.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

That doesn't make sense from a salary standpoint.

 

And the Bulls only give up those 3 for Kobe? And the Suns get a rookie and a 2nd year player for Marion? Hell nah! Chad Ford sucks. He's always pulling trades out of his ass.

 

It's not perfect, but it's better than anything I've heard so far.

 

The Suns want to get rid of Marion and his gaudy salary. At least in that scenario they get back two lottery picks with tons of upside. Amare is their only legitimate post presense. Noah and Thomas solve that dilemma going forward.

[Guest]

Gerald Green is going to become an unrestricted free agent this summer. There are a lot of teams that should be ALL over that. The T-Wolves among them, but, you know, they're the T-Wolves. Why they would let him go, I have absolutely no idea.

 

I like Gerald Green. I really do. But he has absolutely no idea how to play basketball. At all. He has a great perimeter shot, and can score in bunches, but I have never seen a guy so lost on a court in my life. He plays hard, but he just seems like he has no idea what he is doing. And that is with three years of constant coaching year round. I think the best role for Green would be superstar on a really bad team. He would average like 27 a game, his team would be in the lottery every year and everyone would say "If they would only get Gerald Green some help" and completely forget that he is in this position because he can't play basketball.

He's only 21, though. It's flat out idiotic to give up on a player with his ability that fast.

[Precious Roy 0]

The Suns get raped in that deal

[Narcoleptic Jumper 0]

Suns are not going to get rid of Marion.

[Ripper 0]

Gerald Green is going to become an unrestricted free agent this summer. There are a lot of teams that should be ALL over that. The T-Wolves among them, but, you know, they're the T-Wolves. Why they would let him go, I have absolutely no idea.

 

I like Gerald Green. I really do. But he has absolutely no idea how to play basketball. At all. He has a great perimeter shot, and can score in bunches, but I have never seen a guy so lost on a court in my life. He plays hard, but he just seems like he has no idea what he is doing. And that is with three years of constant coaching year round. I think the best role for Green would be superstar on a really bad team. He would average like 27 a game, his team would be in the lottery every year and everyone would say "If they would only get Gerald Green some help" and completely forget that he is in this position because he can't play basketball.

He's only 21, though. It's flat out idiotic to give up on a player with his ability that fast.

 

 

But what I am saying is that he has to be the center piece of a offence. Get him somewhere like Orlando and yeah, great fit. But with Al Jefferson obviously being the future there, and they have plenty of wings, he can't be the focal point.

 

On most other teams, fuck that noise, you keep Gerlad Green, but unless he was on a team that needed a focal point on offense, you wouldn't be utilizing his best attributes.

[alfdogg 0]

Udrih signed with Sacramento yesterday.

[Ripper 0]

There are about 20 GMs that should be kicked square in the balls.

[Failed Bridge 0]

Gerald is also absolutely horrendous playing D. He may score you 27 but it will be negated by the amount the person he's guarding scores anyways. Right now he just doesn't have a high basketball IQ and is the exact reason why I wish the NBA had a minor league system.

 

I still feel in the KG trade that giving up Ryan Gomes stung more than giving up Gerald. I was really hoping to see Gomes be the 6th man on this team.

[Cartman 0]

Isn't the NBDL sort of like a Minor League for the NBA now? I thought some or all teams had an "Affiliate" in that league now.

 

I really wish the Celtics could have kept Gomes too, but i'm sure Posey will be a very solid 6th man this year regardless. I will miss Gomes alot for his all around ability and energy, especially since I have loved watching him from PC to Boston.

[Ripper 0]

Gerald is also absolutely horrendous playing D. He may score you 27 but it will be negated by the amount the person he's guarding scores anyways. Right now he just doesn't have a high basketball IQ and is the exact reason why I wish the NBA had a minor league system.

 

I still feel in the KG trade that giving up Ryan Gomes stung more than giving up Gerald. I was really hoping to see Gomes be the 6th man on this team.

 

Gerald has had 3 full years of constant coaching and still plays like he did when he first stepped foot on the court. I don't think he will ever have a high basketball IQ.