Bonnie Hammer submitting ideas to Vince

[geniusMoment 0]

By the way, for those of you piling on without doing any research, Bonnie Hammer was not a big fan of Vince Russo's work and helped him streamline it to stop confusing viewers (something he could have used in TNA and WCW, respectively).

 

According to Sex, Lies & Headlocks, Bonnie was assigned to Vince and WWE after their disgust over the Pillman gun angle. She had never watched wrestling, but came in and overhauled the product so that it would be appealing to mass audiences. She once remarked to Russo, "If I can't understand what's going on in the first five minutes of the show, then we're in trouble. You have to get viewers in right away, tease them."

 

She was responsible for many of the changes we take for granted now. Among her changes to the product were the estabishment of hot minutes (9, 10, 11 o'clock hours) to help draw viewers. She wanted the best stories displayed at these times. She helped them flesh out their one-dimensional characters. She convinced Vince McMahon to become an on-screen character. She encouraged them to establish strong female characters (like Sable) that women could respect.

 

In my opinion, she's exactly what the product needs right now.

 

 

How in the hell is Sable a strong woman that over women would respect? And I believe you're giving Hammer way too much credit, as she had little to do with the actual writing process, the hot minutes thing is a ratings device but has little effect on the actual quality of the product (I don't care when they put the good things on, as long as they put them on), and I've heard from Meltzer and Keller saying the Vince was the main editor of russo.

[Enigma 0]

It said "strong character". And she was. Sable was the female Austin in 1998 in terms of merchandise and marketing. Stone Cold, DX, and Sable were individually making the WWF more money than they had ever had before.

[CubbyBr 0]

Yeah, Angle got beat around by UT, but he was WWF Champion less than 3 months later.

 

HHH vs. Jericho was a blood bath. Go watch the finish where HHH is covered with blood and has to struggle to get up at 9 and then collapse after 10 and call that a "burial".

 

And The Rock only defeated Chris Benoit because of the favoritist antics of WWF Commissioner Mick Foley.

 

People like you really piss me the fuck off when you mindlessly throw around the word "bury" like you know anything.

 

Losing does not equal buried.

 

The bottom line is that around Fully Loaded 2000 the product was completely stale and they needed new stars but they chose not to create them. What did Jericho do after Fully Loaded? I believe he feuded with Kane over...wait for it...coffee! And benoit? Another IC title run? The fact is that the product back then wasn't as good as everyone says...it was stale and the booking was lazy.

 

I remember almost every go home Raw before a PPV featured a six-man tag, slapping together three random feuds in one match so the writers didn't have to think.

[mfn 0]

You mean John Cena can't have a car chase with Randy Orton and then be lead into a beatdown in the desert by the whole roster?

 

That would be a great way to get a dominant heel stable going. Have Orton recruit some thugs after he jobs @ SummerSlam. Have him steal Cena's title or whatever, and they have a car chase to some remote area where Orton and company (dunno who) will come out and beat the shit out of Cena, and leave him for 'dead'.

 

Orton declares himself champion etc etc etc.

 

everyone wants Cena to come back.

Cena comes back, but angry, very very angry. None of this lame joke Cena. Just a really pissed im going to beat the shit out of you, Cena.

 

I'd LOVE that.

 

 

 

 

[MrRant 0]

He'd have to stay away for awhile though for that to work.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

And I believe you're giving Hammer way too much credit, as she had little to do with the actual writing process, the hot minutes thing is a ratings device but has little effect on the actual quality of the product (I don't care when they put the good things on, as long as they put them on), and I've heard from Meltzer and Keller saying the Vince was the main editor of Russo.

He is. Hammer's influence and contributions are being greatly exaggerated. More research is needed.

[Black Lushus 0]

He is. Hammer's influence and contributions are being greatly exaggerated. More research is needed.

 

the guy telling us to check history needs to check history himself, you're saying?

[cabbageboy 0]

I think Hammer is about 50% right and 50% wrong. She's wrong in wanting the same old washed up people on the show. I mean friggin Sable? For all of this alleged money Sable was drawing can anyone tell me what she ever did that had a lasting impact? She left the company in mid 1999 and I don't think I ever noticed or cared. Not like she meant anything to the actual bottom line.

 

That said, they do need something different from right now. Hell, at least a crazed Russo style show would be interesting. It might be crappy, but at least it would be fast paced crap that wasn't dull. What I think is needed is some major new concept (NWO, Rock N Wrestling, Attitude Era), something to draw people in besides various guys fighting for titles and such.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

He is. Hammer's influence and contributions are being greatly exaggerated. More research is needed.

 

the guy telling us to check history needs to check history himself, you're saying?

Well, more checking than seemingly taking one book at face value. The value of Ms Hammer's contributions are way overblown, that's for sure.

[Black Lushus 0]

I'm not going to say do away with the brand split, but maybe more intermixing is needed?

 

It also doesn't help when half of the ME roster that the fans cheer for is on IR and we have to rely on the last few graduating classes of OVW to carry the shows.

[Guest joshtothemaxx]

People here that are basically saying "Going back to Attitude era stuff won't work, society has changed" is completely correct. What's hot right now and is apparently here to stay? MMA. Obviously, wrestling cannot go back to kayfabe bull shit. However, I fully believe that is the charm of ROH. They never claim their shit is real, but they do basically say "These guys are performers, they respect each other (except when they don't for storyline purposes) and by god, they will convince you this shit is real.. or at least athletic." I'm not saying I want the ROH roster on WWE. I don't. Most of those guys simply aren't large enough to cut it on the WWE stage (please don't bring up HBK and Bret Hart, there are exceptions like Bryan Danielson).

 

But having a show that focused more on respect and attempted to model genuine human thought process would be much more appealing than any of the retarded shit they roll out there now. I don't even know why Orton and Cena are fighting other than uh... because they each want more 15-year-old girls yelling for them? I don't know.

 

WWE is completely directionless now, and that will not be solved when Rey, Edge, Undertaker, HBK, HHH, etc. come back. Something's gotta give.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

He is. Hammer's influence and contributions are being greatly exaggerated. More research is needed.

 

the guy telling us to check history needs to check history himself, you're saying?

Well, more checking than seemingly taking one book at face value. The value of Ms Hammer's contributions are way overblown, that's for sure.

 

I do admit to liberally borrowing the opinions put forth in Sex, Lies and Headlocks, even though it's been shown that some of Assael's fact-checking was spotty at best. I've emailed Meltz to see if he can shed a little more light on the subject. Maybe I'm attributing too much to her, but it is fact that she was there when the company turned the corner. Many people have credited her involvement as a determining factor, but admittedly, that is conjecture.

 

Regardless, I think many in the thread are missing the point of what her involvement can mean. It's not about Attitude or old stars, it's about putting on compelling television. She at least had some input during their most successful period ever and has a similar reputation with other products. I don't know if that means anything, but I get sick of the knee jerk reactions on this board to anyone that is not smark friendly being involved in the product.

[Guest droptoehold]

 

It's not about Attitude or old stars, it's about putting on compelling television.

 

pretty much sums up everything

 

[Black Lushus 0]

WWE is completely directionless now, and that will not be solved when Rey, Edge, Undertaker, HBK, HHH, etc. come back. Something's gotta give.

 

that's the problem...we "smarks" ALWAYS think we're speaking for the other 90% of the wrestling fans out there...those guys you named are the guys they all want to see. Outside of Cena and to an extent Batista, all the casual fans see are a bunch of not-ready-for-primetime players like Orton, Lashley, Kennedy, MVP etc. I seriously doubt they'd even take established guys like King Booker and the Hardys seriously for very long. To me, the hottest fued going right now is Jeff Hardy/Umaga, but I doubt that's something you want to have main eventing a major PPV.

[Broward83 0]

I'm not going to say do away with the brand split, but maybe more intermixing is needed?

 

It also doesn't help when half of the ME roster that the fans cheer for is on IR and we have to rely on the last few graduating classes of OVW to carry the shows.

 

 

While the loss of half the main event draw being gone does hurt, what exactly has WWE done to create credible stars that could take their place?

 

That and well, the fans have ruined wrestling. It's fucking 2007. TWO-THOUSAND and SEVEN and I'm still hearing this god damned "what?!" chant. Fucking seriously...grow up and move the fuck on. Too many good promos get ruined by that chant and because whoever has the mic can't get a decent promo out, creative just chunks out whatever plan they had for the guy and moves on. God, that and the fucking "Boring" chants because people aren't flying around in a glorified car crash inside the ring.

 

That last reason is why I cringe while watching TNA matches now...

[Black Lushus 0]

i HATE that goddamn WHAT? chant...fucking HATE it!

[Spaceman Spiff 0]

What?

[razazteca 0]

Too many good promos get ruined by that chant and because whoever has the mic can't get a decent promo out

Who the hell is cutting these classic promos it sure as hell isn't Johnny Rockstar or Randall.

[Jingus 0]

i HATE that goddamn WHAT? chant...fucking HATE it!

Same here. I've had it yelled at me by toothless retards for five years. It's like, "Hey, I'm the goddamn ANNOUNCER, it's my job to talk... and look around, we clearly aren't booking Austin".

 

 

I'm still trying to understand how Sable was a strong character that "other women could respect". What, they respect her for sticking up to her husband in her fight to be allowed to strip naked in front of thousands of kids, rednecks, and other strangers in every arena? That's like Moe heckling the baseball player on that Simpsons episode Mandy Moore guest starred on: "How does it feel that your wife is turning on a creep like me? Weird I bet. Heh heh."

[Celtic Guardian 0]

I'm still trying to understand how Sable was a strong character that "other women could respect". What, they respect her for sticking up to her husband in her fight to be allowed to strip naked in front of thousands of kids, rednecks, and other strangers in every arena?

 

Essentially, yes. The Sable character reflected a post-feminist viewpoint of women "taking control of their own sexuality."

[haVoc 0]

Blah blah. Horny men put Sable on the map... and in Playboy.

[Scarlett_Rayne 0]

I'm still trying to understand how Sable was a strong character that "other women could respect". What, they respect her for sticking up to her husband in her fight to be allowed to strip naked in front of thousands of kids, rednecks, and other strangers in every arena?

 

Essentially, yes. The Sable character reflected a post-feminist viewpoint of women "taking control of their own sexuality."

 

 

As much as I honestly could never stand Trish since her debut up until her departure, I have to admit the women's division is lacking in her absence. That's not to say they can't develop anyone else like that... hell, they need look no further than Victoria and actually build up her character or other legitimate female wrestlers like Beth Phoenix. They can develop their characters but someone has to give a shit about them more than just their T&A. Hopefully this Bonnie Hammer can somewhat make that happen or at least nudge towards it and actually include the women in compelling storylines with the guys. Hell look at ECW's most memorable story line during the mid-90s with the Raven/Dreamer/Beulah love triangle. I know we've been there and done that but hey, it was memorable tv with an interesting story packed in with good wrestling.

[Atticus Chaos 0]

I'm still trying to understand how Sable was a strong character that "other women could respect". What, they respect her for sticking up to her husband in her fight to be allowed to strip naked in front of thousands of kids, rednecks, and other strangers in every arena?

 

Essentially, yes. The Sable character reflected a post-feminist viewpoint of women "taking control of their own sexuality."

 

 

The pussycat dolls argue that as well.

 

Funny how their intepretation of "taking control of their sexuality" happens to be the one thing that fufills the fantasies of most men and teenage boys and rakes them in pots of cash.

 

I mean, I don't have a problem with the divas using T&A to make a living, I just wish they wouldn't call it feminism or pretend it's not degrading.

[Scarlett_Rayne 0]

I mean, I don't have a problem with the divas using T&A to make a living, I just wish they wouldn't call it feminism or pretend it's not degrading.

 

exactly

[AndrewTS 0]

I'm still trying to understand how Sable was a strong character that "other women could respect". What, they respect her for sticking up to her husband in her fight to be allowed to strip naked in front of thousands of kids, rednecks, and other strangers in every arena?

 

Essentially, yes. The Sable character reflected a post-feminist viewpoint of women "taking control of their own sexuality."

 

 

The pussycat dolls argue that as well.

 

Funny how their intepretation of "taking control of their sexuality" happens to be the one thing that fufills the fantasies of most men and teenage boys and rakes them in pots of cash.

 

I mean, I don't have a problem with the divas using T&A to make a living, I just wish they wouldn't call it feminism or pretend it's not degrading.

 

It's also the basis for building up every new female face. "I'm pretty, hooray! I want to show my titties in playboy!"

 

Female heel: show some shame, slut!

Crowd: boo!

Female face: oh, it's ON, bitch!

*lame feud*

 

It's not like they ever stopped doing it and having Sable come back and do it again should make any real difference. Plus, they did they already.

[Toxxic 0]

The company should have kept Molly Holly around just to do that same angle with every new Diva.

 

Or not.

[iggymcfly 0]

You guys do know that in many circles Bonnie Hammer is considered the one who turned around the product during the Attitude era, right? It was her influence (completely understated in wrestling lore) that got them to incorporate more adult characters and storylines and embrace episodic storytelling. She was instrumental in helping them restructure the tv product from mid-1997 to 2000, which more or less coincided with the fed's strongest ratings and attendence boom ever. I know it's easy to criticize an outsider but at least know your history.

 

Hammer has missed a lot of wrestling years between her original consulting stint and her present day management of USA Network.

 

The original Attitude era was a successful attempt to grow the product beyond the child-skewing storylines that had insulted adult intelligence. Pro wrestling has regressed to the point in Hammer's absence though that they've completely given up on marketing to anyone over the age of 12.

 

FYP.

 

Honestly, I find the idea that the product has "advanced" to be ludicrous. Yeah, a few of the specific "attitude era" angles wouldn't hold up now, but the storylines were about 100x more cohesive and well-written, the booking was more exciting, and the characters were much deeper and more realistic.

 

Do they really expect adults to get into "Umaga the Samoan jungle savage", "Khali the Indian jungle savage", or "Cena the human fart joke". Even cartoons and comic books wouldn't stoop to such cliched one-dimensional characters. If I were to tune in every week and just stay until something ridiculous came along that insulted my intelligence, I'd probably only have the TV on for about 5 minutes average.

[The Niggardly King 0]

You mean John Cena can't have a car chase with Randy Orton and then be lead into a beatdown in the desert by the whole roster?

 

That would be a great way to get a dominant heel stable going. Have Orton recruit some thugs after he jobs @ SummerSlam. Have him steal Cena's title or whatever, and they have a car chase to some remote area where Orton and company (dunno who) will come out and beat the shit out of Cena, and leave him for 'dead'.

 

Orton declares himself champion etc etc etc.

 

everyone wants Cena to come back.

Cena comes back, but angry, very very angry. None of this lame joke Cena. Just a really pissed im going to beat the shit out of you, Cena.

 

I'd LOVE that.

 

I call for Orton and The Redneck Wrecking Crew to give Cena a great Horseman like beatdown to end RAW.

[The Niggardly King 0]

WWE is completely directionless now, and that will not be solved when Rey, Edge, Undertaker, HBK, HHH, etc. come back. Something's gotta give.

 

that's the problem...we "smarks" ALWAYS think we're speaking for the other 90% of the wrestling fans out there...those guys you named are the guys they all want to see. Outside of Cena and to an extent Batista, all the casual fans see are a bunch of not-ready-for-primetime players like Orton, Lashley, Kennedy, MVP etc. I seriously doubt they'd even take established guys like King Booker and the Hardys seriously for very long. To me, the hottest fued going right now is Jeff Hardy/Umaga, but I doubt that's something you want to have main eventing a major PPV.

 

The Hardyz are going to be hella over for at least another 6 years. They just lucked into a market the WWE doesn't really tap into (teenage girls). They also have the fat women market. They came from the Attitude era... which is big when you consider at many house shows some of the most consistently over people were Bob Holly and fucking Scotty 2 Hotty. They also gained credibility when you think of how involved they've been in helping people establish their acts. Edge & Christian, The Dudleys, Biker Taker, Brock Lesnar, The Power Trip, etc. The guys won't get sick of them due to women and children cheering them, because they've been through a lot. Matt is always going to be over, just for that "shoot" feud with Edge. Jeff does enough crazy shit to not lose people.

 

I didn't expect to trail off there, but I can't believe that it's the year 2007 and both of the Hardys are arguably top workers in the WWE. Especially Jeff.

[Ultra Violence 0]

What?

 

They speak English in What?