Guns

[DARRYLXWF 0]

A GUNMAN has opened fire on a group of parishioners attending a service in Colorado in the US, hours after two people were gunned down at a religious centre in the same state.

 

Five people were killed in the later shooting, including the gunman, local police said.

 

El Paso County Sheriff Terry Maketa told Agence France-Presse there was "one gunman down" and "four deceased, possibly one wounded" in the shooting.

 

The casualty toll was preliminary, he said.

 

Early reports said the shooting took place in a carpark outside the New Life Church in Colorado Springs, but CNN reported the gunman opened fire inside the church.

 

Fox News has reported that an "improvised explosive device" was found inside the church and that police were searching for a car that may contain more explosives.

 

Police cordoned off the New Life Church and locked down several local buildings. Colorado Springs Police Lieutenant Fletcher Howard said earlier that police were not sure if a second gunman was at large.

 

One witness told CNN he saw a young man wearing combat boots and with an assault rifle and a handgun.

 

The shooting happened about 12 hours after a gunman killed two staff members at a missionary training centre in Arvada, Denver, after being told he could not spend the night.

 

Authorities said no one had been captured in the earlier slayings in Arvada, which is a suburb in Colorado's capital city.

 

It was not immediately known whether the shootings, about 100km apart, were related. However Paul Filidis, a spokesman for the missionary group in Arvada, said the organisation rented an office from the New Life Church.

 

The New Life Church, which has about 14,000 members, was founded by pastor Ted Haggard, who resigned in disgrace in 2006 after admitting to sexually immoral conduct.

 

Rob Brendle, associate pastor at the New Life Church, told Reuters by telephone: "It's been a dramatic day and we are participating with the police investigation right now."

 

- AFP, Reuters

 

I'm not an American-hater like so many foreigners are becoming these days, but for GOD'S SAKE, fucking do something about your god damn gun problem. Fuck.

[snuffbox 0]

Easy, buddy.

[Cowboy Battlenuts 0]

If everyone in the church had a gun this would of never happened!

[Nightwing 0]

Can someone explain to me how this is a gun problem?

[BorneAgain 0]

This could have been solved easily if they simply implemented my idea of having metal detectors in churches.

 

A lost oppurtunity.

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

This could have been prevented if we had followed Kid Rock's plan of turning all churches into strip clubs.

[AboveAverage484 0]

A GUNMAN has opened fire on a group of parishioners attending a service in Colorado in the US, hours after two people were gunned down at a religious centre in the same state.

 

Five people were killed in the later shooting, including the gunman, local police said.

 

El Paso County Sheriff Terry Maketa told Agence France-Presse there was "one gunman down" and "four deceased, possibly one wounded" in the shooting.

 

The casualty toll was preliminary, he said.

 

Early reports said the shooting took place in a carpark outside the New Life Church in Colorado Springs, but CNN reported the gunman opened fire inside the church.

 

Fox News has reported that an "improvised explosive device" was found inside the church and that police were searching for a car that may contain more explosives.

 

Police cordoned off the New Life Church and locked down several local buildings. Colorado Springs Police Lieutenant Fletcher Howard said earlier that police were not sure if a second gunman was at large.

 

One witness told CNN he saw a young man wearing combat boots and with an assault rifle and a handgun.

 

The shooting happened about 12 hours after a gunman killed two staff members at a missionary training centre in Arvada, Denver, after being told he could not spend the night.

 

Authorities said no one had been captured in the earlier slayings in Arvada, which is a suburb in Colorado's capital city.

 

It was not immediately known whether the shootings, about 100km apart, were related. However Paul Filidis, a spokesman for the missionary group in Arvada, said the organisation rented an office from the New Life Church.

 

The New Life Church, which has about 14,000 members, was founded by pastor Ted Haggard, who resigned in disgrace in 2006 after admitting to sexually immoral conduct.

 

Rob Brendle, associate pastor at the New Life Church, told Reuters by telephone: "It's been a dramatic day and we are participating with the police investigation right now."

 

- AFP, Reuters

 

I'm not an American-hater like so many foreigners are becoming these days, but for GOD'S SAKE, fucking do something about your god damn gun problem. Fuck.

 

If they didn't have guns, they would have used knives. Killers are killers.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

Yep, no other countries have violence or murders. Just the US and our evil guns.

[DARRYLXWF 0]

A psycho with a gun can kill more people than with a knife. There will always be gun deaths in countries, regardless of the existing gun laws. Surely the aim however would be to stop half-witted suicidal morons from acquiring a gun. In Australia, gun control was boosted heavily after the Port Arthur Massacre which saw about 30+ people get killed. There are still gun deaths, but so far there haven't been any incidents where an idiot was able to easily acquire a gun and start firing at whoever crossed his/her path.

[Jingus 0]

It's practically impossible for there to be any real permanent action taken. There are so many guns in this country (more than one gun for every single person), even if they were all outlawed tomorrow, it would take decades to collect them and lots of 'em would just vanish into a new black market which would inevitably spring up. Plus our large, relatively undefended borders make smuggling stuff into the US a relatively easy task.

 

I know it's a tired NRA cliche, but it really is true that if guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. One time a maniac broke into my family's home. With an illegal unlicensed pistol that the law said he wasn't supposed to have, he shot my father full of holes. My dad saved himself by loading his legal, licensed shotgun and running the bastard off. So fuck gun control. If the whining assholes who advocate it had their way, my father would be dead right now because of them.

[Golgo 13 0]

There are a huge amount of guns that were bought second hand, illegally on the street, through proxies, through shady dealers, etc., or were stolen from those who actually went through proper routes, that it's not so much a problem with the gun control in place but with those who sidestep the law, and from that standpoint it's obviously harder to police since they won't be rounded up until they've already been used in a shooting. There's not much you can do within legal channels, because a lot of those necessary measures are already in place. For every gun obtained through those channels by responsible people, there are then illegal guns actually used in shootings that weren't. The guns used in Columbine were all second hand, for example.

 

If someone wants a gun, he's gonna get a gun. Likewise, there are still homemade, makeshift bombs which although they have a higher failure rate, are still capable of killing on a large scale, plans for which are easily obtainable and are possibly even cheaper to make than buying a gun. If a psycho intent on killing large amounts of people want to use those, too, they will and apparently tried to do here, or will eventually start using them more if guns were harder to come by.

[Nighthawk 0]

There was a gun store around here (shut down now), which lost the paperwork for literally hundreds of guns. So that's hundreds of guns that nobody has idea where they went or where they are, from one store, in like a four month period.

 

It's really pretty nuts.

[Nighthawk 0]

There was a gun store around here (shut down now), which lost the paperwork for literally hundreds of guns. So that's hundreds of guns that nobody has idea where they went or where they are, from one store, in like a four month period.

 

It's really pretty nuts.

[Retard Girl 0]

i don't like guns. they're dangerous and cowardly. if you're going to kill someone, you should do it face to face.

 

on the other hand, i'm not going to go around and tell other people that they can't have guns.

 

it's not the guns that is the problem, it's the people who use them. there's a cliche of sorts that i think is totally true, 'if we blame guns for killing people, then we can blame pencils for mispelled words' or something like that.

[Maztinho 0]

I've owned a firearm of some kind since I was 12. People I've injured with said firearms none. Unless you count misholding my shotgun the first time I fired it and bruised my shoulder.

 

I lived in Brazil where the only people who are "allowed" to have guns where the police and still criminals found a way to get their hands on them and cause chaos, in fact I got stalled once heading home and I guess a drive by went down on the street I normally took home so barring the unscheduled stop I'd be dead. Whack jobs are going to find a way to kill if they have it in them to do so, banning guns doesn't work, and like it's been said, gun laws in place are pretty solid.

[Nighthawk 0]

Yeah, but it's not perfect logic. I've owned guns, and sold them. Number of people I've shot: 0. Number of times I've been shot at: 1. Had guns pointed at me: 2. Number of times guns I've sold have shot people: a few.

 

There are what you'd call hardened criminals, and then there are nutcases. Sure, people will find a way to kill, but the staggering ease with which a person can obtain a gun - even legally - doesn't make it any better. And for the hardened criminal, it's honestly not that common, depending on where you live. I mean, like I say, I've actually been shot at, and I don't walk around worrying about it. It's like Eddie Izzard said; no, guns don't kill people, but I think the gun helps.

 

I'm not for banning guns, but tightening the laws up a tad, and maybe trying to get rid of some of the ones we have, it wouldn't hurt. If you're going to outright ban anything, ban handguns.

I'd say assault rifles, but what are you going to rob a bank? Yeah, if you're doing that, you can find one. Handguns are a half step above toys.

[Nightwing 0]

A psycho with a gun can kill more people than with a knife. There will always be gun deaths in countries, regardless of the existing gun laws. Surely the aim however would be to stop half-witted suicidal morons from acquiring a gun. In Australia, gun control was boosted heavily after the Port Arthur Massacre which saw about 30+ people get killed. There are still gun deaths, but so far there haven't been any incidents where an idiot was able to easily acquire a gun and start firing at whoever crossed his/her path.

 

Did you miss the part where they said they reportedly found explosives?

 

I mean, you're looking the wrong way at something. Guns aren't the problem: Taking a gun out of the hands of a gang-banger won't make him an upstanding citizen. Without a gun, he'll look for a new way, or simply acquire one illegally. We are talking about someone who is ready to commit murder here; I don't think they care much about the 90-day Misdemeanor you get for having an unregistered firearm. Read the report again: Do you really think that he woke up that morning and just decided out of the blue "Hey, let's kill someone!" No. He obviously planned it, and I hope you're not naive enough to think that a gun law would stop him from doing this. If not with a gun, with explosives or some other way.

 

Making it harder for people who are going through the legal channels to get guns doesn't make sense. Increasing the time for someone using a deadly weapon with a crime, or simply taking a long hard look at changing the inner-city culture via government aid would probably be smarter. I know that 'government aid' is a nebulous term, but I feel addressing the actual cause of the violence would be a better idea than simply attempting to restrict the legality of means, especially when they aren't following it already.

[EricMM 0]

How about toning down how powerful and/or rapidfiring the guns we sell are?

[Perfxion 0]

Um, all fully-atuomatic guns are banned, assult weapons are banned, felons are banned from having guns, machine guns are banned, a large chunk of semi-automatic weapons are banned. Gun laws are well in place, plus add in the fact that ALL guns could be deadly. A 15th century flint lock can still kill just as well as a Tommy-gun. This isn't a problem of gun conrol but a issue of nutjobs shooting places. I haven't read of a multi person shooting with legal weapons since the wild west.

[Nightwing 0]

How about toning down how powerful and/or rapidfiring the guns we sell are?

 

Because criminals will pick up more powerful versions from other countries? And no matter how much you tone down a gun, it'll still kill or severely injure someone (Unless you're wearing a vest). I don't think regulation of the stopping power of a weapon is going to help the problem much. I'm not a deregulation guy (Really, I think we need to improve our tracking and weapons databases), but I still think we are looking at this problem the wrong way.

[EricMM 0]

Right, but a gun which is not automatic or semi-automatic can still defend you against an intruder, but not take out fifteen people at a time.

[Nightwing 0]

Right, but a gun which is not automatic or semi-automatic can still defend you against an intruder, but not take out fifteen people at a time.

 

So you are going with a 'revolver-only' policy here? Why would that work when harsher ones haven't?

[Perfxion 0]

The biggest problem with gun laws is the black market. But by you logic, a 1903 model Colt .45 would be illegal. It isn't the power or how many bullets because if you make it where 6 shooters, single fire rifles, and some shotguns are the only legal weapons, then everyone who illegally own tech-9s, AKs, AR-15s will just let you fire once before unloading on everyone.

 

The biggest problem is not further restricting legal guns. The bigger problem is three fold: (1)Keeping the illegal ones off the streets, (2)Closing the black market on guns, (3)Better tracking of all guns on the market. And these problems are next to impossible to do without a massive roundup and collection effort. And mini civil war that would spark from it.

[EricMM 0]

Then you just write off these little rampages as part of American life and culture and get on with it.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

Then you just write off these little rampages as part of American life and culture and get on with it.

 

Pretty much.

[Nighthawk 0]

Nah. Tighter regulation would absolutely quell rampage killings. Look at it this way:

 

A) The criminal element is well armed, largely illegally. They tend to kill each other more than anything.

 

B) For home security, a shotgun is probably best anyway.

 

C) Ease of access encourages rampage killings. To use Columbine as an example, had their bombs worked, it's been said they likely could have killed more than a hundred people. Had they had access to a well stocked arsenal of explosives, comparable to the gun access they had, that likely would have happened.

 

Your standard "lone nut" who wants to kill the president or some such, sure, they can use the black market. Maybe even a school shooter, if they're determined. But your rampage killings that take place in school, the mall, a restaurant, or now in a church, this is not the standard situation where one should plan to be in a gunfight, so no one but the authorities is likely to fight back.

 

Therefore, stricter regulation of what type of guns one can legally own hurts no one. Does anyone need some of the higher end models available, besides the police and such? I can't think of a valid reason. It would decrease availability, not wipe it out, but you have to start somewhere.

 

Of course, this doesn't affect the roundup required, but it's baby steps.

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

To go along with what most have been saying, and to add to the "black market assault rifles" convo higher up in the replies, anybody remember that 2-3 hour stand-off in California in the mid-90's? Two or three men covered in head-to-toe body armor with assault rifles robbed a bank, the silent alarm went off, and they held off the police for a few hours just by having superior firepower. Think about that: CRIMINALS have superior firepower than LAW ENFORCEMENT. Illegally obtained, true, but then the police went to a gunshop around the corner and found matching weapons, and that's how it ended. So tell me how we should restrict legal weaponry when all of the high-powered shit that most of these fucks end up using are illegal anyway?

[EricMM 0]

In taking the longview of this, you have to realize that you are much more likely to die in a car accident than in a shooting.

[Nighthawk 0]

Flawed logic, Laz. We shouldn't restrict what law enforcement has, but unless you're suggesting that civilians should have taken down the bank robbers with their own legally purchased weapons, it doesn't matter. Law abiding citizens don't need them. I wouldn't be all that paranoid about being overpowered in a gunfight if you're just a normal guy minding your own business. If somebody broke into your house covered in body armor and toting assault rifles, yeah, you're in pretty bad shape, but that's not likely to happen.

 

I do remember the incident well. Not for nothing, it was more than 10 years ago and it was all over the news, meaning it was unusual.

 

 

[Nightwing 0]

Then you just write off these little rampages as part of American life and culture and get on with it.

 

Do you honestly believe that these rampages would just stop if we put harsher restrictions on guns? Or would they just switch to explosives or something like that?

 

Why is it that people think rampages are caused by someone who just woke up and said "Hey, I just want to kill some people!" rather than people, you know, actually planning them in advance? And what makes you think that a few more regulations and making guns a bit harder to get to is really going to stop these people if they are really ready to kill dozens of people?