Heroes

[AmericanDragon 0]

I've read Watchmen like 5 times. It's awesome. One of my favorite books ever, comics and otherwise. Heroes is cool too. Chillax.

 

Ok, since you're read it and are also a Heroes fan, don't you think there's something pretty damn similar about Linderman and Ozymandius and their respective intentions/motivations for doing what they're doing? Again, people keep telling me to calm down but I've already stated I'm still going to watch and enjoy the show. It's just that people here have the audacity to try to argue with me over whether or not theft occurred while admitting that they haven't even read the book. That's just fucked up. If people who are actually informed about both sides want to disagree with me about whether or not Heroes stole then feel free to. But to the people who only know Heroes and haven't read a page of Watchmen: Why are you trying to argue about things that you have no knowledge about?

[Edwin MacPhisto 0]

Sure there is. As soon as he started describing what he wanted to do, I thought "Ha, Watchmen! Awesome." My reaction was the pleasure of recognition, and a satisfaction that the writers of this show really do seem to respect their "source" material and the genre they're working in. We've already seen homages to any number of incredibly well-known characters (Wolverine!) and less well-known characters (The Purple Man!), and I like that the writers on this show appear to be well-versed in a whole lot of comic/superhero mythology. Keeps me confident that they'll keep coming up with good stuff.

 

As for the plot itself, I expect it to turn out differently here, one way or another.

[AmericanDragon 0]

Sure there is. As soon as he started describing what he wanted to do, I thought "Ha, Watchmen! Awesome." My reaction was the pleasure of recognition, and a satisfaction that the writers of this show really do seem to respect their "source" material and the genre they're working in. We've already seen homages to any number of incredibly well-known characters (Wolverine!) and less well-known characters (The Purple Man!), and I like that the writers on this show appear to be well-versed in a whole lot of comic/superhero mythology. Keeps me confident that they'll keep coming up with good stuff.

 

As for the plot itself, I expect it to turn out differently here, one way or another.

 

Ok but that's where we differ. I had that same reaction when it was revealed that Sylar was a watchmaker in the origins episode. That showed me that they're acknowledging Watchmen and "respecting" it and that was a fun little moment. But then I heard Linderman's plan and I don't think taking an entire storyline from Watchmen is paying it "respect."

[Ripper 0]

I was just about to say that Incredibles is a closer straight rip off of Watchmen.

 

And yeah, just saying that I don't know what I am talking about isn't exactly going to win the argument here. Heroes is obviously INSPIRED by the watchmen. I am intersted in seeing what you are saying is "downright" stolen. It being in New York? Seriously, people would draw the line between the two seeing as the stories have nothing in common, the characters are completely different for numerous reasons, and you are trying to draw a parallel between Linderman and Veidt which is just...wrong on so many levels if you are trying the story is the same. Once caused, the other knows whats going to happen....not exactly the same there.

 

Watchmen deals with two generations of superhero teams. The second generation investigates a mystery that ultimately leads them to a member of the first generation as the mastermind behind it all. Veidt sees himself as a humanitarian and he unleashes the "bomb" on New York in order to unite humanity. He doesn't care that lives will be lost because they will serve the greater good. Heroes deals with two generations of superheroes. The second generation is investigating a mystery and it turns out a member of the first generation is behind it all. So far we don't know if Linderman planned it or not, but we do know what his intention is. He's going to use the destruction of New York to unite humanity. He sees himself as a humanitarian. (Why the hell would he claim to be a humanitarian if he wasn't involved in causing the "bomb?" His wording suggests that he's involved in it.) He doesn't care that lives will be lost because they will serve the greater good.

That's not even a vague similarity. It's the same. Supeheroes being "outlawed" in both Watchmen and The Incredibles doesn't even begin to come close to the level of similarities between Heroes and Watchmen.

 

 

You just made me think I forgot something but how was it two generations of hero teams in Watchmen? All of the characters were of the outlawed heroes. But as I remmeber it Viedt, Rorshach(sp) and Captin Manhattan, Nite Owl and that chick were all of the same generation that got outlawed.

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think you are trying to draw a additional parallels here. The ONLY parallel is that you think Linderman is behind Peter blowing up, but the everything is pointing at it is meant to happen. Now nuclear guy is on his way to New York, where Peter will be. Linderman had nothing to do with that. Linderman KNOWS that the bomb will blow, he also knows that a guy he has in his pocket is going to be the guy to unite people and it will get him in the white house. I just don't see how a team of un-super powered, fucked up former heroes is the same as a bunch of super heroes whose paths all seem to be interlocked. Not only has it not said that Linderman has anything to do with peter going nuclear as of right now, every sign and the basic premise of the show is that it is all meant to happen. The similarities are this: They are in New York, New York will go boom. In one story a character is the mastermind behind it, in another, the characters know it is going to happen and are working towards avoiding it. Its inspired by Watchmen. Its not nearly the "same".

[Zack Malibu 0]

I too, have long owned Watchmen and loved it. Like Edwin mentioned, it's easily one of my favorite reads, comics or otherwise.

 

I watched the episode, and one of the first things my buddy at work and I discussed were the similarities to Watchmen...however, I see no reason in getting up in arms over this. Watchmen, again, as mentioned, is 20 years old. Going by the Jim Cornette rule, the statute of limitations has long since passed for lifting ideas from it anyhow. On a more serious note though, you might as well bitch about the seductive female shape shifter, or the boy genius with super-powered parents and some powers of his own to boot, then get the Mystique and Franklin Richards police on the case. Not to mention this isn't a case of Hollywood lifting something to make a quick buck...people involved with Heroes are names from the comic industry itself. They're simply utilizing the decades of plot devices at their disposal.

[AmericanDragon 0]

I was just about to say that Incredibles is a closer straight rip off of Watchmen.

 

And yeah, just saying that I don't know what I am talking about isn't exactly going to win the argument here. Heroes is obviously INSPIRED by the watchmen. I am intersted in seeing what you are saying is "downright" stolen. It being in New York? Seriously, people would draw the line between the two seeing as the stories have nothing in common, the characters are completely different for numerous reasons, and you are trying to draw a parallel between Linderman and Veidt which is just...wrong on so many levels if you are trying the story is the same. Once caused, the other knows whats going to happen....not exactly the same there.

 

Watchmen deals with two generations of superhero teams. The second generation investigates a mystery that ultimately leads them to a member of the first generation as the mastermind behind it all. Veidt sees himself as a humanitarian and he unleashes the "bomb" on New York in order to unite humanity. He doesn't care that lives will be lost because they will serve the greater good. Heroes deals with two generations of superheroes. The second generation is investigating a mystery and it turns out a member of the first generation is behind it all. So far we don't know if Linderman planned it or not, but we do know what his intention is. He's going to use the destruction of New York to unite humanity. He sees himself as a humanitarian. (Why the hell would he claim to be a humanitarian if he wasn't involved in causing the "bomb?" His wording suggests that he's involved in it.) He doesn't care that lives will be lost because they will serve the greater good.

That's not even a vague similarity. It's the same. Supeheroes being "outlawed" in both Watchmen and The Incredibles doesn't even begin to come close to the level of similarities between Heroes and Watchmen.

 

 

You just made me think I forgot something but how was it two generations of hero teams in Watchmen? All of the characters were of the outlawed heroes. But as I remmeber it Viedt, Rorshach(sp) and Captin Manhattan, Nite Owl and that chick were all of the same generation that got outlawed.

 

The Minutemen and the Crimebusters are the two generations but that doesn't really matter since I was wrong anyway. I thought Ozymandius and the Comedian were part of the Minutemen but now I remember that some members of the Minutemen carried over into the Crimebusters for a while and that's where I saw them together. So instead of Linderman and Ozymandius being part of the first generation they're now just both "retired." And you're right that it hasn't been directly stated that Linderman is behind it but then why would he consider himself a humanitarian if all he's doing is taking advantage of a disaster and isn't actually involved? His words seem to imply that he'll get credit for it. Just judging by the conversation between Linderman and Nathan, Linderman seems to imply that he's involved in setting up the actual "explosion." Nathan even repeatedly asks him why he does it.

[AmericanDragon 0]

On a more serious note though, you might as well bitch about the seductive female shape shifter, or the boy genius with super-powered parents and some powers of his own to boot, then get the Mystique and Franklin Richards police on the case.

 

Those examples are as dumb as someone claiming Heroes ripped off Watchmen because they're both about superheroes. Again, what most people don't seem to understand about this is that it isn't about abilities or other generic stuff like that. Your examples just deal with archetypes or generic superpowers. No one cares that Claire's regeneration has already been done in comics before because it's such a trivial subject. Heroes took a very specific storyline from Watchmen that isn't just some generic stuff like The Incredibles using the "superheroes are banned" concept.

[Special K 0]

Well, if you're stuck on this, take heart in this:

 

Rorschach, Dr Manhattan and the Comedian have yet to be mimmicked well in TV or Movies. Watchmen is, at it's heart, a character study. Sure "I did it 35 minutes ago" kicks you square in the balls the first time you read it, but I can't think of an analogue for those characters that has been nearly as successful as the first time you read Watchmen.

 

Shit, for apocalyptic scenes, I think "Akira" is the only movie that has had near the impact of Watchmen, how many times has that been aped?

[bobobrazil1984 0]

Linderman's monologue was an almost point for point lift from Veidt's monologue during the climax of Watchmen. And it was awesome!

[starvenger 0]

Only on a internet forum would one person have such strong feelings for a comic book. What's next are you going to tell me that X-Men story arch of Days of Future Past is a complete ripoff of Watchmen?

I don't think that he is, but speaking of which... "5 Years Later" certainly was at least inspired by "Days of Future Past", dontcha think?

[Ripper 0]

On a more serious note though, you might as well bitch about the seductive female shape shifter, or the boy genius with super-powered parents and some powers of his own to boot, then get the Mystique and Franklin Richards police on the case.

 

Those examples are as dumb as someone claiming Heroes ripped off Watchmen because they're both about superheroes. Again, what most people don't seem to understand about this is that it isn't about abilities or other generic stuff like that. Your examples just deal with archetypes or generic superpowers. No one cares that Claire's regeneration has already been done in comics before because it's such a trivial subject. Heroes took a very specific storyline from Watchmen that isn't just some generic stuff like The Incredibles using the "superheroes are banned" concept.

 

 

But once again, we are talking about a plot point that is the staple of film and literature before and after the Watchmen.

 

On 24 when Nukes were relased into the hands of muslim terrorist so that certain people could get policy passed because they saw it as the greater good for the country, they weren't ripping off watchmen. On Buffy when they know that they can Kill Dawn and save the world, or not kill her and the world goes to hell...same thing. They have to do something "bad" for the greater good and have to make a decision. On Angel, Jasmine brought the world peace at the cost of free will and a few thousand innocent lives. Once again, the decision of evil for the greater good.

 

you can do this with SO many different movies and books of all different genres. The thing that is making you draw the parallel here is that this is about super powered people, which is kinda like a comic which the Watchmen was. Lindermans speech is no different than 3-4 other speeches that have been heard on 24 for the last few years about being a patriot and doing what was best for this country.

 

This is like accusing a show of blatantly ripping off another show because they both had a red herring.

[Black Lushus 0]

OMG PARKMAN CAN READ MINDS, THEY'RE RIPPING OFF PROFESSOR X!

[AmericanDragon 0]

OMG PARKMAN CAN READ MINDS, THEY'RE RIPPING OFF PROFESSOR X!

 

Great job adding to the discussion moron.

[Black Lushus 0]

great job taking things personal...fuck yourself and get over the shit already...stop talking about fucking Watchmen and start talking about Heroes, idiot.

[Dandy 0]

I know I sure as fuck hated Star Wars because Kurosawa did Hidden Fortress first. I'm sorry, I mean I'll still watch it, but they blatantly stole from Hidden Fortress and it sucks because Hidden Fortress hasn't been given a Box Office release yet.

[Black Lushus 0]

oh man, when they finally all come together, this is so going to totally rip off X-Men!

[Dandy 0]

They shouldn't have had anyone with superpowers, because it blatantly steals from comics in general. And not the Carlos Menstealia comics...I mean the paper ones.

[Dandy 0]

Linderman is a mobster that owns a casino. I bet DeNiro is PISSED~!

[Black Lushus 0]

Sylar removes scalps! Native Americans everywhere are preparing to sue!

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

You know, when this show first came on, by now I expected them to be X-men'd and didn't really like that they were delaying it with character building crap. Now the idea of them being a team is a bit odd.

[AmericanDragon 0]

great job taking things personal...fuck yourself and get over the shit already...stop talking about fucking Watchmen and start talking about Heroes, idiot.

 

You obviously posted that remark since you thought it was what my argument boiled down to. I'm not talking about trivial shit like two people having the same powers.

 

Ripper, Linderman even used the same "half of New York" comment when talking about the explosion. Why not just say "most" or "all" of New York? Why half of all amounts when talking about a huge explosion? Because Linderman's dialogue is almost word for word what Ozymandius says. I don't watch 24 but I'm not debating that this particular "killing lots of people for the greater good" storyline hasn't been used before. Hell that was the real life justification for dropping the atomic bomb on Nagasaki and even that's referenced in Watchmen. It's just that Heroes and Watchmen are both so similar in genre and story that when Heroes decides to use this particular storyline, it just comes across as a straight up theft.

 

edit: Great, more moronic posts came up while I was typing that. I'll sink down to your level then.

 

"OMG HEROES IS ABOUT PEOPLE, IT'S RIPPING OFF WATCHMEN!"

[Black Lushus 0]

jesus, he's STILL going on about it.

 

WHO GIVES A FUCK?

[Dandy 0]

I posted moronic posts on purpose to denote how stupid the argument is. Heroes pays homage to just about every comic or superhero out there in subtle ways. It HAS to. I know you said you will still watch it, but almost all of us think you are way off by saying it is a blatant ripoff of Watchmen. They weren't stealing their thunder at all. You know why it was set in New York? That city is invariably thought of as USA's city. It just is! Not to mention that lots of comics are set in New York or a city that is modeled after it. If Watchmen dropped a bomb in Huntington, WV and Heroes did the same thing...you've got a case.

 

 

But for now, why don't we all just agree to drop it and discuss the show?

[AmericanDragon 0]

jesus, he's STILL going on about it.

 

WHO GIVES A FUCK?

 

Hey I'm sure my posts are annoying to a lot of Heroes fans in this thread but since they don't care, they don't fucking respond and just ignore me. Now obviously Ripper feels that the similarities are too general to be considered theft and I'm currently arguing with him about that. But what exactly is the point of your posts besides taking the time and effort to post that you don't care?

[AmericanDragon 0]

Heroes pays homage to just about every comic or superhero out there in subtle ways.

 

Again, Sylar being a watchmaker was a nice "subtle" homage to Watchmen.

 

How is taking the actual climax from Watchmen being "subtle?"

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

I wonder what season 2 will be about? Will the Heroes all be in one place at the end of season 1 and season 2 is the fall out of what happened and decide where to go next, or will they jump right to being the xmen?

[AmericanDragon 0]

I wonder what season 2 will be about? Will the Heroes all be in one place at the end of season 1 and season 2 is the fall out of what happened and decide where to go next, or will they jump right to being the xmen?

 

The writers have claimed that each season will have its own distinct storyline that also gets completely resolved in their respective finales so I'm expecting something completely different from Season 1's story.

[Black Lushus 0]

I'm kind of with you, Rudo...the thought of them teaming up seemed cool at first, but now, I'm not so sure. I enjoy their random encounters a lot more.

[Ripper 0]

Ripper, Linderman even used the same "half of New York" comment when talking about the explosion. Why not just say "most" or "all" of New York? Why half of all amounts when talking about a huge explosion? Because Linderman's dialogue is almost word for word what Ozymandius says. I don't watch 24 but I'm not debating that this particular "killing lots of people for the greater good" storyline hasn't been used before. Hell that was the real life justification for dropping the atomic bomb on Nagasaki and even that's referenced in Watchmen. It's just that Heroes and Watchmen are both so similar in genre and story that when Heroes decides to use this particular storyline, it just comes across as a straight up theft.

 

Because they are obviously paying homage to the Watchmen. That is why. Anyone that has read it said "Hey, that is like in the Watchmen." But thats where it ends. the method of attack? different. The role of Linderman in the attack as opposed to Ozymandius, completely different.

 

Once again, the ENTIRE show has been built around the fact that the events that Issac painted are GOING to happen no matter what. The characters in the show that know about it are trying to prevent it, but despite their best efforts, the ones that don't know about it are on a path to make it happen anyway. This is more of a Alejandro González type movie thing going on here where all the characters were completely separate but were actually all connected. Thus Linderman all of a sudden being behind the blowing up of Peter is going against EVERYTHING that the show has shown us. his speech was "I know this is going to happen. I have known it for a long time. But I am going to allow it to happen because I like what is going to happen as a result of it." He is a fucking mobster.

 

There stories are NOTHING alike. At all. A bunch of regular people with some serious issues and with no superpowers that used to fight crime until it got outlawed trying to find out what is going on after one of their former parters is found dead versus people discovering they have super powers. Those aren't simular. The thing they have in common is a horrific event that at least one of the characters see as the greater good thus want it to happen. Which happens to be something that is utilized in every genre of entertainment for as long as I remember.

 

They WANT you to think "Hey...Watchmen!!" the same way the Incredibles wanted you to think "Hey....Watchmen" when they had the outlawing of super beings. Niether is a blatant rip off or stealing anything.

[Dandy 0]

How is taking the actual climax from Watchmen being "subtle?"

 

Because so far it has only been one scene in Heroes, where a guy with powers says that the explosion will kill "half" of New York. End of similarity.

 

Ozymandias had no superpowers. He was a retired masked crimefighter with above average intelligence and athleticism. He faked an alien attack that blew up New York in order to convince the world that we needed masked heroes or superheroes.

 

Linderman is a corrupt mobster that uses his nefarious influences to gain more power and such. The world does not know that once had superpowers (and still currently does, but the fact that he has powers differs him from Ozymandias). He "knows" about a person blowing himself up like a nuclear bomb. He wants it to happen because he thinks it will allow Peter to get to the White House and be Linderman's puppet. So far, from the previews, it shows that if this happens, the world will outlaw superheroes.

 

What are the common areas? One man states that "half" of New York getting blown up will allow him a personal gain, and in both mediums, the subject was "comic-book-style heroes." If he had said California instead of New York, would it have instead ripped off Lex Luthor's plan in Superman?